General Discussion

General DiscussionNecronomicon on Warlock

Necronomicon on Warlock in General Discussion
Hanen

    Hanen again, you know, every time I make a post it's always about Warlock. I'm starting to think people are getting sick of me. Rolling their eyes thinking, this guy again with another Warlock post.

    But hear me out, it's not just about Warlock this time but since I mainly play him, a lot of the examples are going to be from what I've experienced.

    I've been getting Necronomicon for as long as I could remember. With over 250+ games on Necro 3 at a 63% win rate. It's an awesome item & I'm going to point out some pros & cons about the item,

    Why it's a good first item for warlock & why it should be his core.

    Warlock's a sub-par hero in most metas throughout the dates of dota. He used to be a lot stronger back when things were slower. His concept has always been the same in the early game, to keep your safe lane safe providing heals whenever necessary & in the current meta offlanes are a lot more punishing to our carry & we'll need those heals a lot more often.

    This is when the 2 Sage Mask early comes in. It offers huge regen for Warlock to continue to stay relevant in lanes. You're also gonna want to make sure you have 70% of your mana when you hit 6 for an easy kill + push or to jungle with your golem at the enemies ancient camp to get the gold needed for your 1st necro & then some for wards.

    Necro 1 will continue to be your money maker throughout the game by pushing waves during a clash or farming the jungle & eventually you'll get to Necro 3, I usually have this by 20 mins 23 if I'm warding. This is when Necro 3 will start carrying you, netting you easy dewards after clashes & revealing invis targets.

    But my favorite part of Necro 3 is not about the true sight or last will those are great but the purge skill you get from the archer is the reason why its better than having aghs & an extra golem.

    I have done some calculations, Necro 3 does more damage than a level 2 golem & has a lower/seperate cooldown. The thing about golems is that there are 101 ways to outrun it. Upheaval does its job well here, but most of the time you would be lucky to channel it without some hero stabbing you at the back. Necro 3 make sures that invis targets would be spotted so you can channel safely, purge is good when a hero gets out of your upheaval, it also has a short enough cooldown to help with escapes. Archers aura also work great with golems for the chase. It makes running away from your golem so much of a chore.

    You can get aghs after necro 3 pretty easily at 35 mins and maybe refresher by 40+ game should usually be in your favor with that kind of push power so it'll end pretty quick if things go well. If it doesn't. Necro 3 could be a way to safely counter push a lane.

    The only time I wouldn't recommend Necro 3 is when they have multi-shot heroes or heroes that are able to dominate/instakill your creep. Battlefury is still manageable. With some decent map awareness its hard to get your Necro killed by free farming enemies with its movespeed.

    What are your opinions on Necronomicon as an item? Personally, it's my favorite item in the game simply because it opens up a lot of plays.

    smurfs = no balls

      its way to greedy for position 5... if u wanna warlock offlane or mid (or some other random shit), then its great ofc

      EDIT: also if u manage to stay in the game for long enough, then its ofc great too, as ur impact is much higher than any other support with that pushing & farming power

      Tento komentář byl upraven
      Sanft & Sorgfältig

        You need defensive items such as Glimmer or und force on warlock, Else you are freekill for everyone on enemy Team.

        Sanft & Sorgfältig

          Actually you got good Winrate and kda, just keep going since it works for you.

          Sanft & Sorgfältig
            Tento komentář byl smazán
            Talker

              Sounds like good item for Warlock - it is a hero who is supposed to be winning teamfights and this makes pushes much easier - it can make difference if you take only 1 tower or 2 towers in the end or force enemy buybacks. That would be the biggest positive for me.

              But you should as well calculate there games where you end up with Necro 1(2) or even only boots + sage masks and belt. Because you cant always finish the item. It is not cheap item like urn or drums (btw drums are helping your golems to catch up as well, right?), where the calculation is quite easy.

              If you check the stats from season 3, you ended up 12x finishing it (with 75% WR), 7 times necro receipt/1/2 (0% winrate) and 2x ending up with receipt. That means 17(19 with receipt) games and winning 8 of them. If my calculation is not flawed somehow.

              Last season you ended up with 56% on these items (which is a bit weird a bit as it says you ended up with receipt 91 times and won 56%, so maybe you were buying them when finishing the game, but didnt pick it up?).

              Cheap Laugh Guy

                It actually makes sense. Midas is not good on supports this patch.
                Part of the reason why cores like LS, Void and OD get Midas is because of the attack speed.
                So the secondary option is Necrobook.

                Problem is do you really need to rush it to lvl 3 though?

                Rocket

                  I don’t think it’s good. If they can deal with your golems, they can deal with necrobooks. If they can’t then your golems are more than enough to win fights and push.

                  Not to say you won’t win with it but there’s better choices.

                  Hanen

                    @Talker @One True Merchant
                    Ahh, If we're talking solely about gold farming and pushing Necro 1 by itself would have done the job. Also the reason why it was left at 1 & 2 for some games is because I don't rush for 3. Wards & dewards are still my priority. Sometimes I get forcestaff or glimmer cape in between getting to 3 as well. 2 Sage mask in the beginning is because they are key items even if I don't get necro. I can still upgrade it to an urn & medallion.

                    What I'm trying to say is you don't have to rush it but if you do there's a higher chance at dominating in the late game. Sometimes getting your recipes can be hard due to hard games & at times like those it's best to leave it at 1 or 2 just for the small safe farms & focus on getting items that can stall the game just enough.

                    @Rocket
                    If you know golems & creeps are going to get dominated then that's when you don't build it. It's quite easy to spot if it's a necro game or not. Sometimes I don't even aim to get aghs for like heroes like sven and gyro to name a few that completely dominates any kind of multi creep they face.

                    Tento komentář byl upraven
                    DSP

                      Very interesting thread.

                      Warlock is so slow that I feel he needs defensive items like force staff or ghost scepter. He has no slow/stun so it's really easy to get killed once the enemy carry is close to you.

                      Btw you are right, Necronomicon seems to help Warlock a lot in early game for mana regen :)

                      Talker

                        I agree, just saying - your winrate with necro 3 is 75% in season 3, but if we count as well games with necro 1/2/receipt only, it ends up dropping under 50%. So it is qute complicated to say how good the item is for warlock.

                        @rocket - the thing is that you have early/mid game only 1 golem. If you drop as well necro, you have more pushing power and higher chance winning teamfight.

                        My issue is that it seems like it can be quite hard getting first item after boots necro - it is not that cheap to put together (for position 5 support). And running for 15-20 minutes with brown boots, 6 strength and mana regen doesnt sound great. Especially if enemy support will have urn/medallion/drums or other small items so will be much stronger and as well with meta with ursa in game, who just eats you.

                        Personally I would suggest maybe drums (underrated) as first item as it gives you some stats, MS and buffs your team with active. And as warlock is forcing enemies to run away from golem (especially if you have good bonds), the MS and AS buff will empower the team to finish the job or turn it around, if needed. And later it buffs as well your summons, so synergy is there as well.

                        Especially if you want to fight early and push towers. If the game is passive and you have space and there is no ursa/LS farming you all the time I guess you can go for first item necro, but I would say games are still a bit too fast for necro on pos5 support (unless there is something more on him).

                        Tento komentář byl upraven
                        i have 5 reports to use

                          necrobook for feeding gold

                          Hanen

                            @Talker
                            I'm not dismissing those items. In fact I had a lot of trial & error to come to this set of items. Force staffs, Glimmer all supports love them & I still use them for most of my games when needed. But here's my verdict. They do not provide any kind of mana regen glimmer & force staff especially not to mention the mana cost of using it you'll often end up with more mana issues than you started out with. So some kind of mana regen is needed. I usually get urn to solve these mana issues. But you can't really compare those with necrobook because those 2 items saves your team so the mana spent & lack of mana will always worth it. Just note that by doing this you're relying on your team mates for a win. As with most defensive support play styles.

                            The movespeed of necro ensures you have constant vision of fleeing enemies & could even be used for body blocking, combined with archers aura which is almost like drums with passive.

                            Having just necrobook, I have never ran into any major mana issues due to the fact that warlock's cooldowns are so huge that mana regen benefits him a lot more than a huge chunk of mana.

                            So about the gold commitment problem, if you see yourself having issues getting to necro 1 on time just use the sage mask you purchased to build into urn & mediation. But like I said, necro will ensure that you continue to snowball.

                            Tento komentář byl upraven
                            Rocket

                              You don’t need ms. Drop rock then channel upheaval for the rest of the fight.

                              Yung Beethoven

                                You know this post is exactly showing what kind of problem there is with lower mmr players. A lot of people (that happens on high mmr games aswell, no doubt) think that playing dota means always to deliver dmg. and to deliver dmg they need items or lvls. But as a pos 5 you got your whole fucking team do deliver the dmg. your job is either to help out when your cores (the ones who deal the dmg) are getting ganked or to hold people in place (via your abilites) for your cores to deliver the fucking dmg!

                                You are not supposed to hit people, you are not supposed to deal dmg, you are supposed to support your carry to deal his dmg god damnit!

                                And to come back to this post: Dude, you are a support not a core. When you are farming/pushing waves and then farming your jungle you are taking away your cores space to farm. what exactly is your safelane core going to do when you, as a freaking pos 5, farms the safest waves and then proceed to jungle?

                                I mean this "may" work for time to time, but honestly you are much better of in buying glimmer cape, forcestaff and maybe after that a big item like refresher or agha, lotus.

                                Jack__Attack

                                  I'm like 66% just by doing the spam sentry ward build. I also played it back when the hero was borderline op 6.86-7.00

                                  Tento komentář byl upraven
                                  bibotot1995

                                    You are not going to buy Necro most of the time. The lower levels of minions don't do much.

                                    Warlock needs defensive items like Force Staff or Ghost Scepter to avoid chain feeding. If the game goes late, you are going well or there is another support on your team, Agh into Refresher is still 90% the way to go.

                                    Cheap Laugh Guy

                                      You did it. You made Valve buff him.