Like you said shawn, it's too dependant on the other so you will have a clear path hitting everyone with your DR. What id those ememy get your CC heroes first? I guess your strat will be 4 protect 1 but looking at your draft, those 4 protector itself are gonna get countered hard. Too much flaws ivory
Sam: Out of the meta doesn't make them bad. Darkseer was out of the meta once.
And stakes are high both sides. You can lose rapier if you lose teamfight. They can lose mid and top rax if they loose teamfight.
Another thing to consider is that Roshan would be easy to kill. Which means 2 lives to Slark.
you ONLY are taking the one aspect of the ulti that was buffed and ignore the other 2 sections that got nerfed badly. I really dont get how someone can think going MoM AND DR is not the most retarded thing you can do. By forcing a DR on slark you have to completely toss out his best feature out the window(map control and ganking) because he is holding the item
I think the problem with your setup of boots>mom>rapier doesn't give you any mid-game. you're saving for rapier almost off the bat, leaving you open for ganks. competitive you'd get pwnd, imo.
Shawn go test it out with your friends all you are doing is polluting the forums with your nonsense everyone told you the exact same thing and all you are doing is saying "if X and Y happened ABC will happen". You are right if any hero never dies DR is a great item on them.........
Sampson: The one aspect that was buffed is ridiculously buffed tho.
Based off experiences with going rapier on heroes, I agree, it sounds retarded intuitively but I'd like to think I've made a reasonable case for it being good with an experienced team.
k3v: Aegis could be aquired no prob with rapier, bkb is from the omni and it lasts 12 seconds.
However, I don't think heart is required, maybe (seriously) a second rapier.
You could probably get your rapier MoM treads at 25 mins, rapier would maybe get you your next rapier at ~32 minutes. (I'll try it in a bot match later to see what's a reasonable time)
ramper: That's a good point, the build up might be a problem. Still if you can play around with the enemy till 25 mins, then you can get roshan and snowball around taking towers, if you lose aegis, farm till next roshan?
Sampson: You say I'm polluting, make your case.
Do you agree that Slark would be really hard to kill with Omniknight backing him up?
would slark be hard to kill if he had omni tree abad etc backing him up? yes but same with every other hero, should they all buy DR? In a BEST case scenario you can kill 1 support in that ulti. I guess you are right ramper I sometimes mix up being dumb as fuck with trolling
I did not think of that, and bots in hindsight would probably be a bad test, you're right. I guess I'll gather up a team and test in CM.
But the problem is the team wouldn't try something like this as everyone would be worried it would fail, which it probably would until we tried it like 50 times and got the draft and gameplay right.
Also, I'm not convinced or I wouldn't have come here asking for a discussion/opinions.
When it's played by the pros I'll be convinced. (so probably not too soon)
that makes 0 sense why make a thread if you are not even willing to test your own theory? This is why I said you are polluting the forums because anyone can just post "Build butterfly on CM" and have done 0 tests and just said well the evasion will help him live longer and since the pros havnt failed with it yet it is still a possibility
It is not my job to prove every single wild claim every idiot makes false it is your job to prove your own claim. Using my previous example I dont have to play a game as CM with butterfly to call that person a idiot for building it
Here's the real issue, as I see it: in most games, every hero will die at least once. Most likely? They will die more than once. Carries are particularly vulnerable to this, as they tend to farm while their team is off pushing. If your carry picks up a DR, they can't farm while the team pushes - the game has changed from, "If they get ganked, we lose a tower or they buyback" to "If they get ganked, we lose the game." So once you pick up a DR, your farm time is over. You need to have your team with you at all times, and that means you need to be going for the throne.
If you're doing this early, with a 1st or 2nd item DR, then you're going to have to push down the outer towers fairly early in the game. There will probably be at least two team engagements between the time your DR carry joins the push and the time you break high ground, and if he dies in either of them, you have probably lost the game. If you go to break high ground this early, while at a relatively low level, when creep and T3 tower damage will *hurt*, it is very possible that you lose the fight or your DR gets lost. Then you lose the game, because your carry has essentially no farm.
If you want a DR as a later item, like after you've picked up some items you deem "core" (BKB, lifesteal, etc), then the damage potential is probably overshadowed by a conventional item like MKB, Butterfly, or Abyssal Blade, which all lack the risks of a Rapier.
There are just too many points at which the DR plan can fail, and if it fails at any single point then you've probably lost the game as a whole. Your carry could get caught out at the secret shop. Repel can be purged by a diffusal blade. Your carry can get kited. You could get counterpushed out of doing anything effective until you're all high enough level to ignore tower damage.
"No plan survives first contact with the enemy," and if your plan isn't flexible enough to adapt and overcome setbacks, then your plan sucks and you should make a different plan.
If you can not put together a test group then DONT argue that it is a good idea. Sure you can say "someone test out to see if this work" but you went well beyond that and argued that it does in fact work
You keep saying I'm stupid, idiot etc. Please make your case, really.
And I never said it was your job.
My claim does not equal my job always:
I think if climbers of mount Everest took more rests, less would die. Here is some reasons why I
think this: blah blah. I'm sorry but I can't test this. Can someone else do it if they feel up to it?
Yes you can test this you can pull up data from people who did travel up mount Everest. Dont try and hide behind a shroud of ignorance if you dont want to be called a idiot
Guys just ignore OP. He obviously doesn't seem to understand what anyone except for himself is saying. To him, Slark's ult lasts for the whole game and is op since nothing can stop him. He just presses R as and when he wants and doom can't hit him, stuns cant target him etc.
I agree, in most games the pros do die a lot but I think it's sort of because they can afford to die when no one has a rapier. Your next point I agree as well, you would be forced to run around as 5.
Ok say there are 2-3 teamfights pre-highground. Can you not just farm as ~5 and only go highground with aegis?
-I think items DR is almost 2.5 times as good as a MKB for example.
-And tide blinks in, ults, omni repels slark, slark leaps in, team follows, slarks uses ult, is now free to deal 3200* damage in total, moves at max 522 movespeed
*assuming 400 damage, 2 attacks per second for 4 seconds
This is not an argument from ignorance because I have presented evidence, not a lack of evidence.
eg. I have a strat idea based around Slark, here is some evidence for it. We are free to discuss debunk my evidence. If that is done we reach the conclusion that it is unknown whether Slark rapier would work.
They can take towers, that's ok, you just gobble up their base 5v3.
Also something I haven't mentioned is the omni ult provides physical immunite, after Slarks ult has expired.
there's nothing wrong with you presenting an argument that goes against convention. but what's happening is we're using historic conventional evidence to point out flaws on your strategy and you are using hypothetical possibilities to retort. they're hypothetical because there is no supporting conventional evidence on your side. so people roll their eyes.
it seems we all believe it would not be a viable strategy.
the cooldown on slark's ulti is 65 seconds. what do you do during that time?
Fair point Sampson, I concede that. I have no idea what word I want, sorry, I'm a bit drowsy.
ramper:
Yes that true. The problem is I'm stuck in a dilemma until someone and their team tries this out a lot, like 50 games in High MM CM, I think it will be hard to test properly. I would do it but my team lack the balls/yoga.
About slarks ulti, I guess you could kill buildings until a threatening number respawned, then back off and farm/collect aegis.
smoke gank - slark dead
kite till uli is up - slark dead
team mates are low lvl and underfarmed do to 5-man nature - slark dead
silence then chain stun - slark dead
what happens when slark dies with rapier? 6000 gold down the drain. all you have is boots and mom. other team now has rapier. your team is underleveled.
And I suppose if you knew where the enemy team was you could just run around individually, and then regroup if the enemies go MIA.
Edit:
Smoke ganks, slark is in the middle always.
Run away until ulti is up.
Omni repel dispells stuns and protects against them. Also slark has dark pact if he gets stunned.
If Slark dies with the rapier then yes you lose, if he doesn't you win easily. I think with enough team practice a Slark could not die with rapier.
natures profit can outpush your "support slark" lineup solo and with all the farm/exp going to one hero unless you send back slark he will just end the game alone
and no you are confused, it is if slark dies you lose and if slark lives you might win and you might lose. Based on all the data going in a game with 0 deaths as a melee carry is quite rare
Sampson: I wouldn't call it support Slark but ok.
And if nature's prophet is split pushing then you just commit to base breaking.
Forced furion to return or lose barracks? Idk, split pushing granted is pretty powerful so I don't really know how that would go without testing.
Hmmm, ghost scepters would be pretty good but how will everyone afford one? And there anti-mage say has a ghost scepter instead of like a yasha or something? Idk, maybe.
There is no data for a well practiced team doing Slark rapier specifically.
And if the chance of Slark not losing the rapier is even >50% it is a winning strategy.
Shawn how exactly isnt it a support slark team? You hand over the whole match if the slark dies NOT having 4 people support him would be even more suicidal than the strat alrdy is
FameGG.com:
Ok, fair enough, but that doesn't make it not powerful. I think it actually implies the opposite, that it's so powerful that it needed banning.
It's like saying Darkseer isn't good because he's banned a lot and you can never get him.
And yeah I just thought you meant that Slark was a support, my bad.
Like you said shawn, it's too dependant on the other so you will have a clear path hitting everyone with your DR. What id those ememy get your CC heroes first? I guess your strat will be 4 protect 1 but looking at your draft, those 4 protector itself are gonna get countered hard. Too much flaws ivory
Sam: Out of the meta doesn't make them bad. Darkseer was out of the meta once.
And stakes are high both sides. You can lose rapier if you lose teamfight. They can lose mid and top rax if they loose teamfight.
Another thing to consider is that Roshan would be easy to kill. Which means 2 lives to Slark.
you ONLY are taking the one aspect of the ulti that was buffed and ignore the other 2 sections that got nerfed badly. I really dont get how someone can think going MoM AND DR is not the most retarded thing you can do. By forcing a DR on slark you have to completely toss out his best feature out the window(map control and ganking) because he is holding the item
this build would be more stable if u have bkb+heart+ageis that first 10sec bkb with the right movement could be unstoppable.
UberFlux: One of: tide, enigma, magnus, treant, naga, is all that is needed I think
I think the problem with your setup of boots>mom>rapier doesn't give you any mid-game. you're saving for rapier almost off the bat, leaving you open for ganks. competitive you'd get pwnd, imo.
Shawn go test it out with your friends all you are doing is polluting the forums with your nonsense everyone told you the exact same thing and all you are doing is saying "if X and Y happened ABC will happen". You are right if any hero never dies DR is a great item on them.........
Sampson: The one aspect that was buffed is ridiculously buffed tho.
Based off experiences with going rapier on heroes, I agree, it sounds retarded intuitively but I'd like to think I've made a reasonable case for it being good with an experienced team.
k3v: Aegis could be aquired no prob with rapier, bkb is from the omni and it lasts 12 seconds.
However, I don't think heart is required, maybe (seriously) a second rapier.
You could probably get your rapier MoM treads at 25 mins, rapier would maybe get you your next rapier at ~32 minutes. (I'll try it in a bot match later to see what's a reasonable time)
Ok I am done I am not getting trolled by this idiot anymore( I feel like a idiot for going this long)
http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.gamepedia.com/2/21/Slark_death_11.mp3
ramper: That's a good point, the build up might be a problem. Still if you can play around with the enemy till 25 mins, then you can get roshan and snowball around taking towers, if you lose aegis, farm till next roshan?
Sampson: You say I'm polluting, make your case.
Do you agree that Slark would be really hard to kill with Omniknight backing him up?
i don't think he's trolling. he's just convinced that his strategy is gold. like you said, he ought to go and try it.
@shawn: good luck with the strat vs bots, though. where is your omniknight?
would slark be hard to kill if he had omni tree abad etc backing him up? yes but same with every other hero, should they all buy DR? In a BEST case scenario you can kill 1 support in that ulti. I guess you are right ramper I sometimes mix up being dumb as fuck with trolling
I did not think of that, and bots in hindsight would probably be a bad test, you're right. I guess I'll gather up a team and test in CM.
But the problem is the team wouldn't try something like this as everyone would be worried it would fail, which it probably would until we tried it like 50 times and got the draft and gameplay right.
Also, I'm not convinced or I wouldn't have come here asking for a discussion/opinions.
When it's played by the pros I'll be convinced. (so probably not too soon)
You say I'm dumb as fuck, why? Try presenting something of substance instead of insulting me and maybe we'll reach a conclusion.
that makes 0 sense why make a thread if you are not even willing to test your own theory? This is why I said you are polluting the forums because anyone can just post "Build butterfly on CM" and have done 0 tests and just said well the evasion will help him live longer and since the pros havnt failed with it yet it is still a possibility
Perhaps I would make a thread because I can't test my theory? Because I don't have 4 friends will to try something radically new?
It is not my job to prove every single wild claim every idiot makes false it is your job to prove your own claim. Using my previous example I dont have to play a game as CM with butterfly to call that person a idiot for building it
Here's the real issue, as I see it: in most games, every hero will die at least once. Most likely? They will die more than once. Carries are particularly vulnerable to this, as they tend to farm while their team is off pushing. If your carry picks up a DR, they can't farm while the team pushes - the game has changed from, "If they get ganked, we lose a tower or they buyback" to "If they get ganked, we lose the game." So once you pick up a DR, your farm time is over. You need to have your team with you at all times, and that means you need to be going for the throne.
If you're doing this early, with a 1st or 2nd item DR, then you're going to have to push down the outer towers fairly early in the game. There will probably be at least two team engagements between the time your DR carry joins the push and the time you break high ground, and if he dies in either of them, you have probably lost the game. If you go to break high ground this early, while at a relatively low level, when creep and T3 tower damage will *hurt*, it is very possible that you lose the fight or your DR gets lost. Then you lose the game, because your carry has essentially no farm.
If you want a DR as a later item, like after you've picked up some items you deem "core" (BKB, lifesteal, etc), then the damage potential is probably overshadowed by a conventional item like MKB, Butterfly, or Abyssal Blade, which all lack the risks of a Rapier.
There are just too many points at which the DR plan can fail, and if it fails at any single point then you've probably lost the game as a whole. Your carry could get caught out at the secret shop. Repel can be purged by a diffusal blade. Your carry can get kited. You could get counterpushed out of doing anything effective until you're all high enough level to ignore tower damage.
"No plan survives first contact with the enemy," and if your plan isn't flexible enough to adapt and overcome setbacks, then your plan sucks and you should make a different plan.
If you can not put together a test group then DONT argue that it is a good idea. Sure you can say "someone test out to see if this work" but you went well beyond that and argued that it does in fact work
You keep saying I'm stupid, idiot etc. Please make your case, really.
And I never said it was your job.
My claim does not equal my job always:
I think if climbers of mount Everest took more rests, less would die. Here is some reasons why I
think this: blah blah. I'm sorry but I can't test this. Can someone else do it if they feel up to it?
Yes you can test this you can pull up data from people who did travel up mount Everest. Dont try and hide behind a shroud of ignorance if you dont want to be called a idiot
Good post Pride, I'll get to it soon.
And Sampson, what if everyone does it at the same distance intervals because it is convention and everyone is comfortable with it. What then?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
Guys just ignore OP. He obviously doesn't seem to understand what anyone except for himself is saying. To him, Slark's ult lasts for the whole game and is op since nothing can stop him. He just presses R as and when he wants and doom can't hit him, stuns cant target him etc.
I agree, in most games the pros do die a lot but I think it's sort of because they can afford to die when no one has a rapier. Your next point I agree as well, you would be forced to run around as 5.
Ok say there are 2-3 teamfights pre-highground. Can you not just farm as ~5 and only go highground with aegis?
-I think items DR is almost 2.5 times as good as a MKB for example.
-And tide blinks in, ults, omni repels slark, slark leaps in, team follows, slarks uses ult, is now free to deal 3200* damage in total, moves at max 522 movespeed
*assuming 400 damage, 2 attacks per second for 4 seconds
why not just assume PA will crit every attack?
They won't catch you when you don't have your ulti anyway man. They don't dare.
This is not an argument from ignorance because I have presented evidence, not a lack of evidence.
eg. I have a strat idea based around Slark, here is some evidence for it. We are free to discuss debunk my evidence. If that is done we reach the conclusion that it is unknown whether Slark rapier would work.
Speaking of fallacies, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man , is what you just did Vexire.
Sampson:
Sorry, I do not follow.
Sam:
You would run around as 5 and back off if Slark didn't have his ulti.
You have to always 5 man. Meanwhile that Furion rapes your raxes. That AM farms away from you. And you can't do anything about it.
They can take towers, that's ok, you just gobble up their base 5v3.
Also something I haven't mentioned is the omni ult provides physical immunite, after Slarks ult has expired.
Shawn you are confused on what evidence means saying "I think" is not evidence. I can not go to court and say I think this man kicked my dog......
there's nothing wrong with you presenting an argument that goes against convention. but what's happening is we're using historic conventional evidence to point out flaws on your strategy and you are using hypothetical possibilities to retort. they're hypothetical because there is no supporting conventional evidence on your side. so people roll their eyes.
it seems we all believe it would not be a viable strategy.
the cooldown on slark's ulti is 65 seconds. what do you do during that time?
their only option is to farm in a group of 5......
Fair point Sampson, I concede that. I have no idea what word I want, sorry, I'm a bit drowsy.
ramper:
Yes that true. The problem is I'm stuck in a dilemma until someone and their team tries this out a lot, like 50 games in High MM CM, I think it will be hard to test properly. I would do it but my team lack the balls/yoga.
About slarks ulti, I guess you could kill buildings until a threatening number respawned, then back off and farm/collect aegis.
smoke gank - slark dead
kite till uli is up - slark dead
team mates are low lvl and underfarmed do to 5-man nature - slark dead
silence then chain stun - slark dead
what happens when slark dies with rapier? 6000 gold down the drain. all you have is boots and mom. other team now has rapier. your team is underleveled.
And I suppose if you knew where the enemy team was you could just run around individually, and then regroup if the enemies go MIA.
Edit:
Smoke ganks, slark is in the middle always.
Run away until ulti is up.
Omni repel dispells stuns and protects against them. Also slark has dark pact if he gets stunned.
If Slark dies with the rapier then yes you lose, if he doesn't you win easily. I think with enough team practice a Slark could not die with rapier.
natures profit can outpush your "support slark" lineup solo and with all the farm/exp going to one hero unless you send back slark he will just end the game alone
ghost scepters
duration? same as slark's ulti
and no you are confused, it is if slark dies you lose and if slark lives you might win and you might lose. Based on all the data going in a game with 0 deaths as a melee carry is quite rare
Sampson: I wouldn't call it support Slark but ok.
And if nature's prophet is split pushing then you just commit to base breaking.
Forced furion to return or lose barracks? Idk, split pushing granted is pretty powerful so I don't really know how that would go without testing.
@Shawn
Let's grant you the premise that Omni + Slark with divine rapier is extremely good. (Not true)
You will only win 1 match in a BO 3. Next time you face the same team they will simply ban your Slark & Omni Knight combo.
In competitive play PROS make picks/bans that fuck with their opponent picks.
he means 4 support 1 slark, i think
Hmmm, ghost scepters would be pretty good but how will everyone afford one? And there anti-mage say has a ghost scepter instead of like a yasha or something? Idk, maybe.
There is no data for a well practiced team doing Slark rapier specifically.
And if the chance of Slark not losing the rapier is even >50% it is a winning strategy.
Shawn how exactly isnt it a support slark team? You hand over the whole match if the slark dies NOT having 4 people support him would be even more suicidal than the strat alrdy is
FameGG.com:
Ok, fair enough, but that doesn't make it not powerful. I think it actually implies the opposite, that it's so powerful that it needed banning.
It's like saying Darkseer isn't good because he's banned a lot and you can never get him.
And yeah I just thought you meant that Slark was a support, my bad.
Shawn no having a rapier does not = a win so your 50% theory is completely false
he wins with rapier 92% of the time he picks it up.