@ relentless (are u feartheghost from dotacash, since ur post styles are similar?)
that depends on whether u care or not. if u are "playing for fun" then u should not care about mmr. at some point the player needs to ask that question to him/herself and decide. if OP is happy with the level of gameplay at 2.5k mmr then he wouldn't be asking this question.
that mmr distribution you cite is from unranked, which doesn't take into account the thousands of players who are playing co-op vs bots to farm items. in reality anyone who isn't new and has minimal experience should be over 2k+, and after several months, a player can without much trouble hit 3k+. this wasn't the case in dota 1 where a lot of people were stuck playing -em mode all the time, and failed to show improvement after 7 years of playing.
i have run into quite a few 4k players in my games if the queue time is long enough, and they make some blatant mistakes that are often facepalm worthy (linear vision of what heroes should do, not casting spells in teamfights, running around the map feeding, losing lanes they should be able to win by a large margin, "5 manning mid" 9 minutes in creating a stalemate that accomplishes nothing, etc.)
Relentless, good and bad are relative. The community is not "wrong" for thinking that anything below 4k is "bad". You consider 3k to be damn near amazing, but the reality is it's not good enough for even open try hard leagues, much less invite only. This is where most of these players are coming from. If you're not good enough to be in at least a try hard league, then you're bad. That is where their cut off line is. Just because your line is different, does not mean it's wrong or they are wrong.
i agree with relentless's post just because this guy is coming from the regular dota community. obviously he's nowhere near as good as most of the people on the forum but he never claimed to be good and is basically just asking for advice so don't really get the flame and stuff. and i believe he was comparing it as a whole to the dota community, not a tryhard community (seeing as this guy isn't really part of the DB community/ixdl-type leagues or anything.
if you want some basic advice on a general note on how to improve:
-watch luminousinverse's guides as they're pretty useful to sub-4k players (at least from when i saw them) as he gives really good breakdowns of individual heroes, how to improve, etc
-just start randoming every game. its gonna suck when u get a hero you dont want to play but the best way to improve in terms of map awareness (which is what separates a decent player and a great player in a lot of games), as it allows you to both put yourself in your opponents shoes and figure out when you're going to get ganked (beyond the simple missing calls, warding, and stuff). basically figure out how to play every hero decently using guides (they're usually pretty crappy but at least they give you a decent start, i'd recommend finding guides by pro players if possible but choice is yours)
-don't pick stagnant item builds, learn how to adapt your item choice to the game (you kind of already do this but I think your actual item choice is pretty bad on the whole. for example if you're playing a support disruptor getting a ghost scepter is almost always a good choice since it allows you to survive chain initiation on you (since you're usually the key to winning fights) if you can get it off on time).
-don't work on every skill in the same game. make yourself work on only one skill (for example carrying a tp at all times) for 5 games, then move on to the next skill, and then combine them after you do two, then three, and so on. makes it much easier to deal with all of the things that go on in a game.
also if you have fear of lag just do everyone that you might play with in the future a favor and don't play a game. makes it harder for them since they have no idea when you'll lag and might throw the game (30 mins in and you lag on disruptor, there goes the game)
sorry if the organization of that post is really bad. but yeah you're going to have to be more specific
No Symphonia, anyone can't just play for a few months and get to 3k. You are mistaken. Many can do that. Many cannot.
It may be that Knight of End can reach 3k with more practice and learning. Or maybe he cannot.
Dipshit, of course you did not comprehend what I wrote because you do not wish to do so. I do not believe 3k is "amazing!". It simply is far better than average pub players. Personally I don't think 4k is very impressive since I have passed that level before, though I am currently below 4k. But that's just my personal perspective. It is not the reality of most dota players.
I think Murs is an impressive player... but most likely in his own eyes he still has a lot of weaknesses. From his perspective 4k players suck. Although I would be happy to have 4k players on my team if they were cooperative. If you are not trying to play a high level game, anyone can be helpful, even if they are only 2k MMR.
i think the difference is that there are players who want to improve at the game and the people that play purely for amusement. seeing as this guy isn't one of the people that play for amusement (even if they feed or w/e, only play 1 game every week or something like that) then you have a completely different group of people to compare him against. also taking into account that many smurfs exist (most of whom are pretty bad players who abandon accounts) and the ppl who abandon accounts after 1-2 games cause they lose both of them while smurfing and you once again get a different group.
not sure if valve included things like 50+ games played in the last 2 months or something like that but if they did the mmr distribution would be quite different. or even 50+ in last 3-4 months.
The 2.5k player will regularly encounter in his games players many of you have never seen... people who are actually at 2k MMR who can't lasthit and don't try, who almost never look at the mini-map, who are so slow you would be sure they were all drunk, who have no idea what items to get.
He will be doing a number of things correctly that he sees most people in this game doing incorrectly. He will see games won and lost primarily by whichever feeder feeds first and most. He may not have the skill to simply out-play the other team over and over and win despite this.
Knight of End, if you do have the skill to do this, that is how you win games at 2.5k MMR. You take a snowball hero and you just out-play the nubs over and over until you win. That is what a 3k player would do, and a 3.5k player would do very easily... to win games that you lost since you did not do it. In your case I recommend juggernaut... and not viper.
it depends on who u hang out with. there are some players who have played longer than i have and are still relatively bad, and there are those who have only played for slightly over 2 years and are quite good/a lot better than i am. ush has only been playing for ~2.5 years, i think...and he has ~5700 mmr. obviously the vast majority of the dota playerbase cannot replicate what he did (most players don't have the time nor interest) but getting to 3k mmr should not be difficult with several months under the belt.
when valve releases the statistics for ranked mm and the distributions then u may have a point...but the stats u cite right now are based off unranked and i listed a major reason not to believe it.
if he believes he is significantly better than the 2k mmr players he is getting matched up with, he should go mid and dominate most if not all of his games. that's how people get out of the trench tier quickly.
All of my ranked games have been won rather easily, and i have been the deciding factor for the solo games. I've just picked Bristle back every game in AP. Pretty hard to effectively counter pick Bristle in pub games.
Anyway, I assume my MMR is going to be low, but if i'm winning, then i'm going up, so no big deal.
Ranked matching MMR will be nearly identical to unranked. Ranked matching games are more likely to include better players, in that such players play a lot more ranked matching. But it will have very little if any impact on the distribution of MMR scores.
5.7k MMR is a player who could be on a pro team if he is not already... its not about time or interest. Nearly all dota players could never get 5.7k MMR if they did nothing else for 10 years but eat, sleep, dota and had a team of pro players coaching them. But the players who can do it... do not need much help at all to reach it. Dota is simply far easier for them because they have the hand-eye and processing skills to do it.
Most people do not have the skills to get to 3k MMR. I think the average player with time and practice could probably get to 2.7k MMR. But some people are truly below average and could not even do that... there are 400k dota players below 1.1k MMR. Some are just throwers, but most really cannot execute the most basic dota functions despite practice. Nevertheless such ppl can still enjoy the game. It is fun, and funny. Dota has lots of pretty colors and options and HATS!!.
Most people do not become good at the game after years of playing casually. They are smart enough to realize it is not worth trying to do because they can't do it. People like to do things where they win without much effort. Those who are talented play a lot and get even better BECAUSE they are talented. Those who are not talented, don't want to play a lot because it is HARD for them. Doing things you suck at is not fun. Most people remain bad, because they can't become good. They do not try hard to become good at a game that is too hard for them so they remain even a bit worse than they might be if it was fun from them to practice it.
If you take a truly average skill player and try to make them improve they will say you are ruining the game. If you force them to care about improving the skills they cannot improve it will only produce frustration.
I would just like to establish that I never said I thought my MMR should be higher, the intent of my original question was to establish why it was low so I could improve it
I think MMR is directly proportional to your KDA I'm pubs. If you check out my account we have roughly the same winrate but very different KDAs. (3.2k mmr)
I had a feeling my KDA would be a reason behind it, for example if you look at my bloodseeker games I have to try and pull up my KDA after 6 months of being crap, so it will take a while but it will improve in time I guess
KDA has no impact at all on MMR.. except for the first games of a new account for the anti-smurf. If you get extremely high KDA in the first games of a new account you jump to fairly high MMR right away. But if you can't sustain it MMR will drop back down. Getting high KDA on an old account does nothing. MMR is about winning games.
^true, and considering my KDA at the start of me playing dota was goddamn awful (this I accept fully) is probably one of the many reasons why my mmr is relatively low
FYI I've played dota for a little over a year, and I wish I could remove my first six months altogether, I was THAT bad. I guess pulling up my win rate is the most sensible thing to focus on.
There are a few heroes you play somewhat frequently that are not winning.
Viper is at 16-21 (-125 MMR)
Bane is 9-13 (- 100 MMR)
Sand King is 5-10 (-125 MMR)
Morphling is 4-7 (-75 MMR)
Faceless Void is 4-7 (-75 MMR)
Skywrath Mage is 3-8 (-100 MMR)
Of course you would have had a harder time winning with your better heroes at higher MMR... so you don't really get all those points back by not playing these heroes. But still its 600 MMR there you might have been up if you picked juggernaut and death prophet.
You can't have maxed out MMR and play lots of heroes both. You have to decide which one is more important to you. But if you want to play in a bit higher level games. Just pick your best heroes.
Something to consider: Ranked MMR and non-ranked are separate scores. You can play whatever heroes you want for non-ranked and then tryhard on your best heroes for ranked to get a higher MMR score. Your regular pub MMR will be lower, but no ones sees that... you can't even see it.
relentless there's no way that the 1% cutoff is above 4100, as said before it's the stats from unranked that aren't actually relevant at all and valve didn't release the ranked ones yet
furthermore being ''above average'' in dota isn't really a compliment, since being ''average'' is pretty much the i dont know what the hell im doing land
its like if your gpa was 3.66 in school (if you got rated on a 1-5 scale lets say)... now it might be above average depending on the school but you're still a pretty bad student
listen OP, the first step is to realize you're terrible and go on from there - and i dont mean to bash you here. just forget about thinking that you have any clue on what you're doing (you dont) and if youre interested in improving watch streams, your own replays, learn the proper builds for heroes, realize what better players do that you dont and so on
@relentless if you look at my recent matches for those heroes, I've only played those heroes a few times within the last 6 months, I stopped playing them once I realised I was sucking with them. The reason they're still in my most played is of what you said: I'm playing lots of other heroes and as such they're staying in my most played. I'm going to stick to a smaller pool of heroes now in ranked to se if that helps
@swiftending you can't just come across and say "you have no idea what you're doing" when all you know is my MMR rating, I do know proper builds for heroes, I watch a lot of professional games on twitch and I do frequently analyse my own replays, it's just a case of my needing to improve being consistently good, rather than some games stacking pulling etc but others not. I appreciate you're trying to help but what you're saying comes off as rather elitist
I know a few people that are playing dota since forever, have over 1k games in Dota 2, and are below 3k. Everyone knows "what a pro would do", but dota isn't turn based to have time to think about your next action in every moment.
Thanks 6_din_49....I have 2k total games in Dota 2 and prior to this no Dota 1 experience.....I'm only at 4110 tho :/ with a shitty laptop setup...but they say in SEA 4110 would be higher in other servers..oh well just #roadto5kmmr
I've been playing dota 2 for 13 months nearly with no prior moba experience, and I had no friends who played dota to give me any idea how to play, so I was kinda thrown in at the deep end, but I'd still say it was worth it because learning the hard way is sometimes the best way
I see youre a jug fan just like me. The first thing you have to put into account is your effectiveness in every match. 3 kill death ratio is above good for any pub player that will increase your rating. Its not just your 10 rating matches but also your previous pub matches are put into account. Im at 4.4k. Keep your jug up. Omnislash till death bro.
First step to improving your MMR is to realize you are not as good as you think you are. I tell that to all of my 3k friends. They're slowly becoming better because they are starting to realize that just watching pro dota and following the scene ain't enough. You may have the knowledge, but can you apply what you know?
The main problem with ALL 3k players and under is that they have ZERO game sense. You got to think of the matchup, you need to think of who you're up against in your lane and if you have an advantage, you push that advantage. If you're at a disadvantage, you obviously don't be as aggressive. Little simple shit like this is what you guys don't have. You need to think, think, think. Don't just focus on yourself, focus on the game as a whole. What does your enemy see? What do they want to do? What are they trying to accomplish?
Also, FUCKING STARE at the minimap. Literally just look at it every 5 seconds and COUNT the number of enemy heroes you see on the map. If you're a carry and you think you're farming safely and freely, you look at the map and you see one guy mid and no one else on the map. That should be a sign of them trying to DO shit so you should back off and be safe until you see more on the map.
These are all relatively simple ideas, however, most dota players can't do it cause they're too god damn focus on there own hero and not on the game itself.
Another way I would say to get better, especially at like, below mid 4k, is be aggressive. Lower leveled players are often passive to a fault, leaving many opportunities on the board for something as little as harassment or tower damage to something as big as a wasted bkb charge, a teleport, a hero kill, or a tower kill. This doesn't mean go balls to the walls 100% of the time, but aggression wins a lot more games than passivity. The only way passivity is going to win games is if you have a superior late game hero / team ,or a guy that farm dramatically better than the opposing teams carry.
This is especially true in trilanes and with heroes like CM / Visage / Veno. Use the fact that you're strong early, otherwise you might as well be a different hero all together. Support doesn't mean watch your carry farm and occasionally pull, it means make life miserable for the opposing lane.
Other things: If you see the opposing team dewarding, that's fine, just use wards in slightly different places. The high ground right outside the rosh pit works great for both teams, the cliff by radiant medium camp is good, the cliff by either radiant or dire mid t1 works great.
Smoke if you're behind. Smoke if you're up. If smoke is in stock and you have a team that has any ability to gank, do it. On that note, learn to take small successes -- just because you picked off their Bane doesn't mean you can handle the 5v4 fight that ensues.
Don't build recommended items -- they're bad for almost everyone. Learn what works and what doesn't, this is a surefire way of never getting beyond 3k.
As a carry: Learn how and when to be greedy. It's not always the worst thing in the world for you to not be in a team fight (of course, this also depends on the hero). Yesterday I was playing a CM ranked game and made the call to continue pushing their mid as they pushed our top, figuring it would be a lot more effective for me to base race. The end result was my team having 3 of the 4 heroes dying and us losing our top rax, but the opposing team losing t2/t3 mid, mid rax, and both t4s. But, you have to know when you can do this and when it's probably not the best idea -- playing carry means being very opportunistic and at times selfish.
As an offlaner / hard lane duo: Your job is not to get kills. I can't count the amount of games my offlane gave first blood in the first 5 minutes. Your job is to make it uneasy for their carry, but to not die in the same process. Getting Void that first blood and ensuing 4 minute midas is a sure way to give your team a disadvantage.
As a mid: Be involved. If you're a ganker, gank, if you're a pusher, capitalize when their hero leaves the lane. Don't be stagnant.
As a safelaner: Be patient. Frequently that lane is going to suuuuuuuuuuuuck. Be patient. In that same game from yesterday we had two melee against disruptor / undying, it was miserable. But I escaped the laning phase with a reasonably timed midas and 30 something cs, so there was hope. It's okay to not have your ideal 60+ cs as long as you're not giving needless gold / experience in the process. We were able to get what farm and levels we could, and though we struggled for the first 15 minutes, we did what we could later.
I think way2high pointed the most important thing: STARE AT THE MAP every 5 seconds and look for the colors of the enemies that can come from nowhere and burst you (Ex: pudge, nyx, riki, storm, etc).
LARS is giving you good advice. At 2.5k MMR really all the way up through the lower 3.k+ games you win by doing. Far to many players are passive at this level because they are not confident enough to act. The only way to get confident is to do it.
So maybe you have no idea how to smoke gank, well you could watch someone... but what you really need to do is just do smoke ganks. Go fail or succeed at 50 smoke ganks... then you will learn how to do them. How to sneak in a roshn? You have to do it. How to break the base? Probably you have to initiate and die. You have to take risks and taking them early in the game is better. If you wait until the 30 min 40 min 50 min... carries and strong pushing heroes can make a mistake cost you a lane of rax. Take risks early when they don't cost much.
Do not wait until you have elite items to fight. Do not put your confidence in having better items. Often the other team will have better items. What do you do then? Just say gg hide in the fountain? No you have to learn to win from behind by taking risks. Learn what risks are better than others by doing.
"why would you smoke gank when theres no wards or vision of any kind"
This^ At lower tiers there aren't any wards to avoid vision of. However, you're also forgetting the other part of smoke...the part that gives you faster movement speed and can alert you to people in the nearby jungle you don't have vision of.
Kudos to you Relentless, that helped put alot into perspective for me, thank you.
Knight, theres no way to judge your gameplay without watching any, but chances are if youre winning roughly 50% and losing 50% of matches youre in the right MMR and that will only get better as you develop. ive personally played a shitload of dota and still learn something new about it but still know so little. the best advice i can give is focus, react, and be creative. every last hit and deny is critical, every chance you have to harrass an enemy early game should be taken (just dont take un-necessary damage), learn how to avoid creep agro or share tower agro, go balls deep and dive if you can survive, try something new.
Development came for me when i stopped following builds and started trying my own new stuff, and learning from that, because you can watch anyone play and try to get their skills and understand their way of thinking but youll never be them exactly, you have to try and adapt in your own way and get your own skillset. if someone criticises you in game dont yell at them and get mad, look at it from their point of view and try to learn from what they say, accept that you may have messed up and try not to repeat it. anyway gl in future games mate, cya at 4k soon ;D
"@swiftending you can't just come across and say "you have no idea what you're doing" when all you know is my MMR rating"
yes he can
I don't know any decent player with less than 3,5k MMR
I don't know any bad player with more than 4,5k MMR
this rating does measure your skill.
@op swiftending really said what I really feel. No matter how good you think you are, if you are at that mmr most likely you are where u are with possibly about 500 to 1k uncertainty depending on the amount of games u play. The most important thing you must understand and accept is that you're nowhere near goood enough to where you actually think you are. Ask everyone here above 4k and they will tell you that. Why? Because it's that attitude that requires change in order to improve. Following and doing a set of checklist ( for example buying wards courier , watching pro games etc) doesn't automatically make you good for 4k tier. You can't expect us to look at your games and tell you you're decent when u do well. Why? Because ure in that tier. Even if u do well, it's prob not good enough. You could be playing bad but still dominate your low bracket.
I've stopped playing for 2-3 months (not sure whether valve drops normal / unranked mmr for inactivity. But recently after my calibration games with partying friends who just started dota.. I've got ranking of 3900. Almost 4.1k. I'm sure after a few games 4.1k is reachable. But it's embarrassing enough to be labeled top 1% just because there are so many players who are just starting and aren't that dedicated to the game as I am. Truth be told, if I'm no where 5k I don't feel happy about being top1%. Even at 5k you hear people being dumb at what they do. The point is that being decent at your tier doesn't mean ure good enough at higher tier. You cannot climb 2-3 by just grinding games and think you can climb your way up. It doesn't happen like that you have to change your mentality and accept you're crap and that's when your whole perspective of the game changes. But to do that is indeed difficult. So Goodluck.
@relentless what you post about skill levels etc is very true. But you got to understand that like what swiftending say.. even at 4.1k tier people are still bad in dota. Yes they are definitely better than the rest out there but it's still bad. Most people still don't last hit properly, average map awareness and most of all bad decision making and poor positioning. That alone I'm sure constitute a sub par to average player.
How do I know? I'm in that bracket and I know I don't do all that every time and that had cost me games.
I think at the lower brackets if you aren't playing mid it comes straight down to luck in your other lanes. For example, sometimes (I'm only at 3.2k) I have supports who ward, buy mek, follow their carry, position relatively well, etc, but other times I have supports who feed uncontrollably, steal last hits, and sit passive in lane.
Who knows if anyone on your team can last hit? Who knows if anyone on your team can use their skills properly? Who knows if anyone on your team will push if they get the chance?
Supporting is really hit-or-miss in those games, but at least you can learn from any mistakes YOU make and improve upon them. You will eventually raise your MMR if you improve, theoretically.
relentless there's no way that the 1% cutoff is above 4100, as said before it's the stats from unranked that aren't actually relevant at all and valve didn't release the ranked ones yet
furthermore being ''above average'' in dota isn't really a compliment, since being ''average'' is pretty much the i dont know what the hell im doing land
its like if your gpa was 3.66 in school (if you got rated on a 1-5 scale lets say)... now it might be above average depending on the school but you're still a pretty bad student
listen OP, the first step is to realize you're terrible and go on from there - and i dont mean to bash you here. just forget about thinking that you have any clue on what you're doing (you dont) and if youre interested in improving watch streams, your own replays, learn the proper builds for heroes, realize what better players do that you dont and so on
i fuckin loved that post
@sano " I don't know any bad player with more than 4,5k MMR "
im playin in 4.5k mmr atm with a friend, mb even more since we won a lot of game and ppl are completelty awfull, they basically dont know what they are doing. ive played ~20games in that bracket and ididnt encounter a single good player yet. expect my mirror oppo.
I'd like to point out that while I'm not trying to say I'm better than I am, I'm merely saying that I disagree with swift saying that I should accept I know nothing, and that I have no idea what I'm doing. I'm not trying to say "oh I don't deserve to be in this bracket blah blah blah" but it comes off as ignorant if someone doesn't have any idea how you play (seeing as I'm assuming he didn't watch any of my games)and says that I know nothing purely by being in the 2.5K bracket. Obviously you could imply it, but that's being closed minded. If I knew nothing my MMR wouldn't be going up with every game I play. Obviously there are still things to improve upon and there always will be, and what I need to do now is actively apply my knowledge to the games, because that seems to be what is winning me more games recently
You still use a lot of ellipses.
On another note, my parents sound like the type to whine on 99/100 tests. #chinese
@ relentless (are u feartheghost from dotacash, since ur post styles are similar?)
that depends on whether u care or not. if u are "playing for fun" then u should not care about mmr. at some point the player needs to ask that question to him/herself and decide. if OP is happy with the level of gameplay at 2.5k mmr then he wouldn't be asking this question.
that mmr distribution you cite is from unranked, which doesn't take into account the thousands of players who are playing co-op vs bots to farm items. in reality anyone who isn't new and has minimal experience should be over 2k+, and after several months, a player can without much trouble hit 3k+. this wasn't the case in dota 1 where a lot of people were stuck playing -em mode all the time, and failed to show improvement after 7 years of playing.
i have run into quite a few 4k players in my games if the queue time is long enough, and they make some blatant mistakes that are often facepalm worthy (linear vision of what heroes should do, not casting spells in teamfights, running around the map feeding, losing lanes they should be able to win by a large margin, "5 manning mid" 9 minutes in creating a stalemate that accomplishes nothing, etc.)
Relentless, good and bad are relative. The community is not "wrong" for thinking that anything below 4k is "bad". You consider 3k to be damn near amazing, but the reality is it's not good enough for even open try hard leagues, much less invite only. This is where most of these players are coming from. If you're not good enough to be in at least a try hard league, then you're bad. That is where their cut off line is. Just because your line is different, does not mean it's wrong or they are wrong.
some dude thats 48% is talking about whos bad and what the standard should be
i almsot got to play against symphonia but someone left
i agree with relentless's post just because this guy is coming from the regular dota community. obviously he's nowhere near as good as most of the people on the forum but he never claimed to be good and is basically just asking for advice so don't really get the flame and stuff. and i believe he was comparing it as a whole to the dota community, not a tryhard community (seeing as this guy isn't really part of the DB community/ixdl-type leagues or anything.
if you want some basic advice on a general note on how to improve:
-watch luminousinverse's guides as they're pretty useful to sub-4k players (at least from when i saw them) as he gives really good breakdowns of individual heroes, how to improve, etc
-just start randoming every game. its gonna suck when u get a hero you dont want to play but the best way to improve in terms of map awareness (which is what separates a decent player and a great player in a lot of games), as it allows you to both put yourself in your opponents shoes and figure out when you're going to get ganked (beyond the simple missing calls, warding, and stuff). basically figure out how to play every hero decently using guides (they're usually pretty crappy but at least they give you a decent start, i'd recommend finding guides by pro players if possible but choice is yours)
-don't pick stagnant item builds, learn how to adapt your item choice to the game (you kind of already do this but I think your actual item choice is pretty bad on the whole. for example if you're playing a support disruptor getting a ghost scepter is almost always a good choice since it allows you to survive chain initiation on you (since you're usually the key to winning fights) if you can get it off on time).
-don't work on every skill in the same game. make yourself work on only one skill (for example carrying a tp at all times) for 5 games, then move on to the next skill, and then combine them after you do two, then three, and so on. makes it much easier to deal with all of the things that go on in a game.
also if you have fear of lag just do everyone that you might play with in the future a favor and don't play a game. makes it harder for them since they have no idea when you'll lag and might throw the game (30 mins in and you lag on disruptor, there goes the game)
sorry if the organization of that post is really bad. but yeah you're going to have to be more specific
No Symphonia, anyone can't just play for a few months and get to 3k. You are mistaken. Many can do that. Many cannot.
It may be that Knight of End can reach 3k with more practice and learning. Or maybe he cannot.
Dipshit, of course you did not comprehend what I wrote because you do not wish to do so. I do not believe 3k is "amazing!". It simply is far better than average pub players. Personally I don't think 4k is very impressive since I have passed that level before, though I am currently below 4k. But that's just my personal perspective. It is not the reality of most dota players.
I think Murs is an impressive player... but most likely in his own eyes he still has a lot of weaknesses. From his perspective 4k players suck. Although I would be happy to have 4k players on my team if they were cooperative. If you are not trying to play a high level game, anyone can be helpful, even if they are only 2k MMR.
i think the difference is that there are players who want to improve at the game and the people that play purely for amusement. seeing as this guy isn't one of the people that play for amusement (even if they feed or w/e, only play 1 game every week or something like that) then you have a completely different group of people to compare him against. also taking into account that many smurfs exist (most of whom are pretty bad players who abandon accounts) and the ppl who abandon accounts after 1-2 games cause they lose both of them while smurfing and you once again get a different group.
not sure if valve included things like 50+ games played in the last 2 months or something like that but if they did the mmr distribution would be quite different. or even 50+ in last 3-4 months.
The 2.5k player will regularly encounter in his games players many of you have never seen... people who are actually at 2k MMR who can't lasthit and don't try, who almost never look at the mini-map, who are so slow you would be sure they were all drunk, who have no idea what items to get.
He will be doing a number of things correctly that he sees most people in this game doing incorrectly. He will see games won and lost primarily by whichever feeder feeds first and most. He may not have the skill to simply out-play the other team over and over and win despite this.
Knight of End, if you do have the skill to do this, that is how you win games at 2.5k MMR. You take a snowball hero and you just out-play the nubs over and over until you win. That is what a 3k player would do, and a 3.5k player would do very easily... to win games that you lost since you did not do it. In your case I recommend juggernaut... and not viper.
it depends on who u hang out with. there are some players who have played longer than i have and are still relatively bad, and there are those who have only played for slightly over 2 years and are quite good/a lot better than i am. ush has only been playing for ~2.5 years, i think...and he has ~5700 mmr. obviously the vast majority of the dota playerbase cannot replicate what he did (most players don't have the time nor interest) but getting to 3k mmr should not be difficult with several months under the belt.
when valve releases the statistics for ranked mm and the distributions then u may have a point...but the stats u cite right now are based off unranked and i listed a major reason not to believe it.
if he believes he is significantly better than the 2k mmr players he is getting matched up with, he should go mid and dominate most if not all of his games. that's how people get out of the trench tier quickly.
All of my ranked games have been won rather easily, and i have been the deciding factor for the solo games. I've just picked Bristle back every game in AP. Pretty hard to effectively counter pick Bristle in pub games.
Anyway, I assume my MMR is going to be low, but if i'm winning, then i'm going up, so no big deal.
But I want to be 5k mmr...sob sob
I just understood why i got 2.9 mmr even i only won 1 of my calibrating matches woo guess my veno was awesome before the implementation of rank match
Ranked matching MMR will be nearly identical to unranked. Ranked matching games are more likely to include better players, in that such players play a lot more ranked matching. But it will have very little if any impact on the distribution of MMR scores.
5.7k MMR is a player who could be on a pro team if he is not already... its not about time or interest. Nearly all dota players could never get 5.7k MMR if they did nothing else for 10 years but eat, sleep, dota and had a team of pro players coaching them. But the players who can do it... do not need much help at all to reach it. Dota is simply far easier for them because they have the hand-eye and processing skills to do it.
Most people do not have the skills to get to 3k MMR. I think the average player with time and practice could probably get to 2.7k MMR. But some people are truly below average and could not even do that... there are 400k dota players below 1.1k MMR. Some are just throwers, but most really cannot execute the most basic dota functions despite practice. Nevertheless such ppl can still enjoy the game. It is fun, and funny. Dota has lots of pretty colors and options and HATS!!.
Most people do not become good at the game after years of playing casually. They are smart enough to realize it is not worth trying to do because they can't do it. People like to do things where they win without much effort. Those who are talented play a lot and get even better BECAUSE they are talented. Those who are not talented, don't want to play a lot because it is HARD for them. Doing things you suck at is not fun. Most people remain bad, because they can't become good. They do not try hard to become good at a game that is too hard for them so they remain even a bit worse than they might be if it was fun from them to practice it.
If you take a truly average skill player and try to make them improve they will say you are ruining the game. If you force them to care about improving the skills they cannot improve it will only produce frustration.
o.O I read through that block..
I would just like to establish that I never said I thought my MMR should be higher, the intent of my original question was to establish why it was low so I could improve it
5300 mmr and im a shit player, so go figure how hard doto is
I think MMR is directly proportional to your KDA I'm pubs. If you check out my account we have roughly the same winrate but very different KDAs. (3.2k mmr)
So I guess the low MMR is because of KDA.
Advice from pro friend, "Don't die."
only win 3/10
got 4100 mmr
now 4,7k bot solo and party
if u get low mmr, enjoy it because u can stomp everyone in your mmr bracket lulz
I had a feeling my KDA would be a reason behind it, for example if you look at my bloodseeker games I have to try and pull up my KDA after 6 months of being crap, so it will take a while but it will improve in time I guess
KDA has no impact at all on MMR.. except for the first games of a new account for the anti-smurf. If you get extremely high KDA in the first games of a new account you jump to fairly high MMR right away. But if you can't sustain it MMR will drop back down. Getting high KDA on an old account does nothing. MMR is about winning games.
^true, and considering my KDA at the start of me playing dota was goddamn awful (this I accept fully) is probably one of the many reasons why my mmr is relatively low
FYI I've played dota for a little over a year, and I wish I could remove my first six months altogether, I was THAT bad. I guess pulling up my win rate is the most sensible thing to focus on.
There are a few heroes you play somewhat frequently that are not winning.
Viper is at 16-21 (-125 MMR)
Bane is 9-13 (- 100 MMR)
Sand King is 5-10 (-125 MMR)
Morphling is 4-7 (-75 MMR)
Faceless Void is 4-7 (-75 MMR)
Skywrath Mage is 3-8 (-100 MMR)
Of course you would have had a harder time winning with your better heroes at higher MMR... so you don't really get all those points back by not playing these heroes. But still its 600 MMR there you might have been up if you picked juggernaut and death prophet.
You can't have maxed out MMR and play lots of heroes both. You have to decide which one is more important to you. But if you want to play in a bit higher level games. Just pick your best heroes.
Something to consider: Ranked MMR and non-ranked are separate scores. You can play whatever heroes you want for non-ranked and then tryhard on your best heroes for ranked to get a higher MMR score. Your regular pub MMR will be lower, but no ones sees that... you can't even see it.
But I want 5k :( I still find myself bad arghhhh I need a good computer setup first haha
relentless there's no way that the 1% cutoff is above 4100, as said before it's the stats from unranked that aren't actually relevant at all and valve didn't release the ranked ones yet
furthermore being ''above average'' in dota isn't really a compliment, since being ''average'' is pretty much the i dont know what the hell im doing land
its like if your gpa was 3.66 in school (if you got rated on a 1-5 scale lets say)... now it might be above average depending on the school but you're still a pretty bad student
listen OP, the first step is to realize you're terrible and go on from there - and i dont mean to bash you here. just forget about thinking that you have any clue on what you're doing (you dont) and if youre interested in improving watch streams, your own replays, learn the proper builds for heroes, realize what better players do that you dont and so on
what is high mmr?+4k?ı mean in live games i see red signal near the number of spectators.
@relentless if you look at my recent matches for those heroes, I've only played those heroes a few times within the last 6 months, I stopped playing them once I realised I was sucking with them. The reason they're still in my most played is of what you said: I'm playing lots of other heroes and as such they're staying in my most played. I'm going to stick to a smaller pool of heroes now in ranked to se if that helps
@swiftending you can't just come across and say "you have no idea what you're doing" when all you know is my MMR rating, I do know proper builds for heroes, I watch a lot of professional games on twitch and I do frequently analyse my own replays, it's just a case of my needing to improve being consistently good, rather than some games stacking pulling etc but others not. I appreciate you're trying to help but what you're saying comes off as rather elitist
Fak you swift im better than you Kappa...anyways how did that smurf account you made to go up rankings go? what's it at atm
I know a few people that are playing dota since forever, have over 1k games in Dota 2, and are below 3k. Everyone knows "what a pro would do", but dota isn't turn based to have time to think about your next action in every moment.
@iceiceice-wannabe
See for yourself: http://www.playdota.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1398477
Thanks 6_din_49....I have 2k total games in Dota 2 and prior to this no Dota 1 experience.....I'm only at 4110 tho :/ with a shitty laptop setup...but they say in SEA 4110 would be higher in other servers..oh well just #roadto5kmmr
I've been playing dota 2 for 13 months nearly with no prior moba experience, and I had no friends who played dota to give me any idea how to play, so I was kinda thrown in at the deep end, but I'd still say it was worth it because learning the hard way is sometimes the best way
I see youre a jug fan just like me. The first thing you have to put into account is your effectiveness in every match. 3 kill death ratio is above good for any pub player that will increase your rating. Its not just your 10 rating matches but also your previous pub matches are put into account. Im at 4.4k. Keep your jug up. Omnislash till death bro.
First step to improving your MMR is to realize you are not as good as you think you are. I tell that to all of my 3k friends. They're slowly becoming better because they are starting to realize that just watching pro dota and following the scene ain't enough. You may have the knowledge, but can you apply what you know?
The main problem with ALL 3k players and under is that they have ZERO game sense. You got to think of the matchup, you need to think of who you're up against in your lane and if you have an advantage, you push that advantage. If you're at a disadvantage, you obviously don't be as aggressive. Little simple shit like this is what you guys don't have. You need to think, think, think. Don't just focus on yourself, focus on the game as a whole. What does your enemy see? What do they want to do? What are they trying to accomplish?
Also, FUCKING STARE at the minimap. Literally just look at it every 5 seconds and COUNT the number of enemy heroes you see on the map. If you're a carry and you think you're farming safely and freely, you look at the map and you see one guy mid and no one else on the map. That should be a sign of them trying to DO shit so you should back off and be safe until you see more on the map.
These are all relatively simple ideas, however, most dota players can't do it cause they're too god damn focus on there own hero and not on the game itself.
Another way I would say to get better, especially at like, below mid 4k, is be aggressive. Lower leveled players are often passive to a fault, leaving many opportunities on the board for something as little as harassment or tower damage to something as big as a wasted bkb charge, a teleport, a hero kill, or a tower kill. This doesn't mean go balls to the walls 100% of the time, but aggression wins a lot more games than passivity. The only way passivity is going to win games is if you have a superior late game hero / team ,or a guy that farm dramatically better than the opposing teams carry.
This is especially true in trilanes and with heroes like CM / Visage / Veno. Use the fact that you're strong early, otherwise you might as well be a different hero all together. Support doesn't mean watch your carry farm and occasionally pull, it means make life miserable for the opposing lane.
Other things: If you see the opposing team dewarding, that's fine, just use wards in slightly different places. The high ground right outside the rosh pit works great for both teams, the cliff by radiant medium camp is good, the cliff by either radiant or dire mid t1 works great.
Smoke if you're behind. Smoke if you're up. If smoke is in stock and you have a team that has any ability to gank, do it. On that note, learn to take small successes -- just because you picked off their Bane doesn't mean you can handle the 5v4 fight that ensues.
Don't build recommended items -- they're bad for almost everyone. Learn what works and what doesn't, this is a surefire way of never getting beyond 3k.
As a carry: Learn how and when to be greedy. It's not always the worst thing in the world for you to not be in a team fight (of course, this also depends on the hero). Yesterday I was playing a CM ranked game and made the call to continue pushing their mid as they pushed our top, figuring it would be a lot more effective for me to base race. The end result was my team having 3 of the 4 heroes dying and us losing our top rax, but the opposing team losing t2/t3 mid, mid rax, and both t4s. But, you have to know when you can do this and when it's probably not the best idea -- playing carry means being very opportunistic and at times selfish.
As an offlaner / hard lane duo: Your job is not to get kills. I can't count the amount of games my offlane gave first blood in the first 5 minutes. Your job is to make it uneasy for their carry, but to not die in the same process. Getting Void that first blood and ensuing 4 minute midas is a sure way to give your team a disadvantage.
As a mid: Be involved. If you're a ganker, gank, if you're a pusher, capitalize when their hero leaves the lane. Don't be stagnant.
As a safelaner: Be patient. Frequently that lane is going to suuuuuuuuuuuuck. Be patient. In that same game from yesterday we had two melee against disruptor / undying, it was miserable. But I escaped the laning phase with a reasonably timed midas and 30 something cs, so there was hope. It's okay to not have your ideal 60+ cs as long as you're not giving needless gold / experience in the process. We were able to get what farm and levels we could, and though we struggled for the first 15 minutes, we did what we could later.
I think way2high pointed the most important thing: STARE AT THE MAP every 5 seconds and look for the colors of the enemies that can come from nowhere and burst you (Ex: pudge, nyx, riki, storm, etc).
LARS is giving you good advice. At 2.5k MMR really all the way up through the lower 3.k+ games you win by doing. Far to many players are passive at this level because they are not confident enough to act. The only way to get confident is to do it.
So maybe you have no idea how to smoke gank, well you could watch someone... but what you really need to do is just do smoke ganks. Go fail or succeed at 50 smoke ganks... then you will learn how to do them. How to sneak in a roshn? You have to do it. How to break the base? Probably you have to initiate and die. You have to take risks and taking them early in the game is better. If you wait until the 30 min 40 min 50 min... carries and strong pushing heroes can make a mistake cost you a lane of rax. Take risks early when they don't cost much.
Do not wait until you have elite items to fight. Do not put your confidence in having better items. Often the other team will have better items. What do you do then? Just say gg hide in the fountain? No you have to learn to win from behind by taking risks. Learn what risks are better than others by doing.
im a victim of elo hell wheres the love valve
my rating is 1k im constantly having feeders please help
why would you smoke gank when theres no wards or vision of any kind
"why would you smoke gank when theres no wards or vision of any kind"
This^ At lower tiers there aren't any wards to avoid vision of. However, you're also forgetting the other part of smoke...the part that gives you faster movement speed and can alert you to people in the nearby jungle you don't have vision of.
Kudos to you Relentless, that helped put alot into perspective for me, thank you.
Knight, theres no way to judge your gameplay without watching any, but chances are if youre winning roughly 50% and losing 50% of matches youre in the right MMR and that will only get better as you develop. ive personally played a shitload of dota and still learn something new about it but still know so little. the best advice i can give is focus, react, and be creative. every last hit and deny is critical, every chance you have to harrass an enemy early game should be taken (just dont take un-necessary damage), learn how to avoid creep agro or share tower agro, go balls deep and dive if you can survive, try something new.
Development came for me when i stopped following builds and started trying my own new stuff, and learning from that, because you can watch anyone play and try to get their skills and understand their way of thinking but youll never be them exactly, you have to try and adapt in your own way and get your own skillset. if someone criticises you in game dont yell at them and get mad, look at it from their point of view and try to learn from what they say, accept that you may have messed up and try not to repeat it. anyway gl in future games mate, cya at 4k soon ;D
"@swiftending you can't just come across and say "you have no idea what you're doing" when all you know is my MMR rating"
yes he can
I don't know any decent player with less than 3,5k MMR
I don't know any bad player with more than 4,5k MMR
this rating does measure your skill.
I'm slowly working my way up, 25 points at a time :P
[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSrTnWDTdwI[/YOUTUBE]
lol is symphonia that g uy with 4k matches played or something
no
and who didnt play 4k matches?
@op swiftending really said what I really feel. No matter how good you think you are, if you are at that mmr most likely you are where u are with possibly about 500 to 1k uncertainty depending on the amount of games u play. The most important thing you must understand and accept is that you're nowhere near goood enough to where you actually think you are. Ask everyone here above 4k and they will tell you that. Why? Because it's that attitude that requires change in order to improve. Following and doing a set of checklist ( for example buying wards courier , watching pro games etc) doesn't automatically make you good for 4k tier. You can't expect us to look at your games and tell you you're decent when u do well. Why? Because ure in that tier. Even if u do well, it's prob not good enough. You could be playing bad but still dominate your low bracket.
I've stopped playing for 2-3 months (not sure whether valve drops normal / unranked mmr for inactivity. But recently after my calibration games with partying friends who just started dota.. I've got ranking of 3900. Almost 4.1k. I'm sure after a few games 4.1k is reachable. But it's embarrassing enough to be labeled top 1% just because there are so many players who are just starting and aren't that dedicated to the game as I am. Truth be told, if I'm no where 5k I don't feel happy about being top1%. Even at 5k you hear people being dumb at what they do. The point is that being decent at your tier doesn't mean ure good enough at higher tier. You cannot climb 2-3 by just grinding games and think you can climb your way up. It doesn't happen like that you have to change your mentality and accept you're crap and that's when your whole perspective of the game changes. But to do that is indeed difficult. So Goodluck.
@relentless what you post about skill levels etc is very true. But you got to understand that like what swiftending say.. even at 4.1k tier people are still bad in dota. Yes they are definitely better than the rest out there but it's still bad. Most people still don't last hit properly, average map awareness and most of all bad decision making and poor positioning. That alone I'm sure constitute a sub par to average player.
How do I know? I'm in that bracket and I know I don't do all that every time and that had cost me games.
I think at the lower brackets if you aren't playing mid it comes straight down to luck in your other lanes. For example, sometimes (I'm only at 3.2k) I have supports who ward, buy mek, follow their carry, position relatively well, etc, but other times I have supports who feed uncontrollably, steal last hits, and sit passive in lane.
Who knows if anyone on your team can last hit? Who knows if anyone on your team can use their skills properly? Who knows if anyone on your team will push if they get the chance?
Supporting is really hit-or-miss in those games, but at least you can learn from any mistakes YOU make and improve upon them. You will eventually raise your MMR if you improve, theoretically.
i fuckin loved that post
@sano " I don't know any bad player with more than 4,5k MMR "
im playin in 4.5k mmr atm with a friend, mb even more since we won a lot of game and ppl are completelty awfull, they basically dont know what they are doing. ive played ~20games in that bracket and ididnt encounter a single good player yet. expect my mirror oppo.
I'd like to point out that while I'm not trying to say I'm better than I am, I'm merely saying that I disagree with swift saying that I should accept I know nothing, and that I have no idea what I'm doing. I'm not trying to say "oh I don't deserve to be in this bracket blah blah blah" but it comes off as ignorant if someone doesn't have any idea how you play (seeing as I'm assuming he didn't watch any of my games)and says that I know nothing purely by being in the 2.5K bracket. Obviously you could imply it, but that's being closed minded. If I knew nothing my MMR wouldn't be going up with every game I play. Obviously there are still things to improve upon and there always will be, and what I need to do now is actively apply my knowledge to the games, because that seems to be what is winning me more games recently