I think that matching people to the same skill level promotes learning stagnation since they're matched with people that are just as bad as them. How can one improve without a difficulty increase in the game? If it's always the same shit, you get used to it and stop learning.
I was going to give examples and shit but i think that would just be taken out of context.
I think Juice's experiment was pretty accurate in a way:
if you play heroes that have high impact you will get to the rate you belong. THAT DOESNT MEAN YOU WILL GO UP, IT MEANS YOU WILL GO TO WHERE YOU BELONG. it may be +350 MMR from where ur from, it may be 2500 MMR from where ur from, it may be 0 MMR from where ur from, which means u where at u should be.
so why do you have to pick high impact heroes for that? well cause thats the easiest way to impact a game, picking heroes with snowball potential, so you have the max potential without depending much on your team (so if your teammates are holding you back, they will hold you less with those heroes), which means you can test how good you are.
if you are a fucking 5k playing on 2k mmr probably you'll be able to go up to 4.5k by playing support and stuff, but once you get at this point perhaps you'll need to have a higher impact in the game to maintain a 65% or more winrate.
the thing is that if you are way better than your actual rating, you will climb slowly on MMR because it has no smurfing system, so even if you stomp, you'll get +25 MMR and will play vs people 25 MMR higher than your previous match, you will not be jumping from 2 to 5k instantly, which is a safer way to get to your rating as you will be able to stomp several games (like climbing 1k MMR deserves atleast 40 games if you go 100% WR), while smurfing by the 3rd or 4th game you are already on your usual bracket.
that shows that there is no such thing as teammates holding you back because if that would be true, you should be able to win atleast 55~60% of your games, even if they suck bad, because MMR is universal, so your opponents are also badies (unlike when ur smurfing where you're put vs 5k players with braindead mates).
the thing is that people usually don't think about picks in general. you have the mistaken impression that the guy that is sucking in your game never had a good game in his life, so he doesn't belong to your bracket, which is not the case. sometimes i stomp a match so hard, go for like 30 kills, the next match i suck due to lane compositions or opponents really shutting me down, so the other 4 guys in my team may think that im a fucking braindead that dont belong my rating, while I myself know that last game i stomped (they have no way to know it). Thats what happens 80% of the time.
mainly on lower brackets where people are not consistent enough, their performances will go from awful to ROAD TO TI in like 2 games, where in 6k you should expect people to have a more reliable playstyle (but i assume that even there you'll eventually get people sucking hard)
also, dota is a game with a variety of skillset. lets say you are good at last hitting. Ok, player B is good at positioning. Fine.
So you see player B missing some last hits and you start "holy shit i cant count on this monkey", at the same time you are in a bad position yourself and get ganked, then the B guy thinks "fuck volvo why always with monkeys?". The moral of the story is that people only look upon what they are good at, basically because you need the same skill (of playing well) to know that you/others suck at it. For you, you weren't in a bad position (if you knew that you were, why you should be there?), but for anyone who is experienced enough, you were fucking dumb staying that, and the guy didn't know that his dmg output would be lower than the remaining health on the creep, so he missed it (if he was skilled, he would know that he would miss and he wouldnt miss lol).
Thats pretty much it. If you are there for a decently amount of time (like months) then there is no excuses, you belong there
This thread is a good read (uncomon for buff threads)
Zenoth and 3kmmr the struggle is real are giving interesting points and this one made me giggle because i feel the same way:
"this is true, but the 4.5k players in my game will pick 3 mid heroes, flame the 5.6k player for not being able to support 3 of them successfully, then QQ on forums about shit teammates"
I fully agree there is a long range in which picks doesnt have an important impact, but map awarness and game sense decide the game outcome.
The only thing i have hard time to understand are 1000mmr variations. Have been at both maximum/minimum 2-3 times already.
also as a 3kish shitty player, i can assure you that lineups dont fucking matter
every single game goes past 40 min mark doesnt matter if your team is dk pugna rhasta dp and tinker, the game will go past 40 min. so those 5 man carry team look awful but they are pretty functional as it is barely impossible to have nothing (item wise talking) in a 40+ minute game, even if there is no space for everybody farm consistantly you'll still get your farm sometimes and by that you'll have your shit
ive won several games where i thought "fuck man they are going to rape us early game, we fucking lost boys" and then a spectre start pwning noobies in the laning phase, etc. it all comes down to how you play, not what you play actually.. even in first page games i see there is hardly any coordination there so even if you pick a yolo wombo combo team chances are that you won't effectively use your combo at its max potential so you are favoring the 5 man carries there who are getting fat and will rape you late game
the most absurd lanes i've seen like i as magina mid vs a fucking viper and after 10 min i got more than 50cs which is great (i wouldn't get more in safelane with enemies harassing and creep steal from my support) in that circumstances. also i had games where our lineup was fucking good, 2 supps trilaning and protecting a spectre vs a 3 man mid (pudge, invoker and shadowfiend) 2 man carry (void and gyro) and we got rekt
none of us is a fucking pro so it doesnt matter how they do it, how they lane, where they put a certain hero because if they do it is because they have built a strategy over it, in pubs it simply do not exist so fuck if medusa is mid (i saw zenoth playing her there several times) and pudge on safelane, the team who has got better players will win if they all could put up their plays
even counterpicking is not that crucial in pubs because again ppl lack coordination and will not be able to shut you down if you are skilled enough to avoid it
2k trash player here tried to force a captains mode of zeus/bloodseeker/aa/spectre/natures prophet and everyone was in agreement to hit "R" at the same fucking time.
Hitting R at the same time is hard. There must of been a 40 second gap between our ults. I would have an easier time shaving a lesbian weight lifters fem nazi armpits than having everyone count backwards from 3 on here man. Fucking retarded.
Sleave you are contradicting yourself. If every game goes past 40 mins then it absolutly matters what you pick and early game supports become worthless like CM, Lion to a degree, shadow shaman though his serpent wards rock later. If every game is going past 40 mins you should pick carries all the time.
And saying they all go that long is a fallacy. Your last page of games, 5 went over 40 mins. 7 were between 30-40 and 2 were under 30. Games are won mid game now, that 20 min to 30 min time frame. If you can't fight in there game is over.
Picks absolutely matter I can generally tell which team will win in my matches just by looking at picks. My last two games:
Radiant riki, bh, pudge, disruptor, sniper
Dire doom, spec, weaver, shadow demon, invoker
Guess dire win. Result dire win.
Both teams carry heavy but two stealthers on same team means even more incentive to wards. Plus dire has better disable.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/740167166
Radiant lich, aa, bristle, sf, pa
Dire sniper, lycan, ss, slark, necro
Guess dire win, result dire win. Teams seem fairly close but dire team has ridiculous push with shrapnel, serpent wards, lycan and necro. This is one of those games that probably ends up with a score of 30-30 but dire has mega creeps while radiant struggles to kill at the t2s.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/740129108
Your lineup does matter, you picked a cheese lineup based on combining spec, aa and zeus ults. Aa's ult takes timinig to pull off. You picked two mid heros. I mean that's still a winnable match cus of rat np and spec + aa is a strong lane but who's your offlane? It's not ideal.
Picks are like the single most important aspect of 3k ish play because people arent' that good to carry with non convential stuff. Your team needs strong lanes, usually disables, some sort of push and some sort of carry.
@Mark ofc they matter the thing is that they dont matter as much as people think, in low tier games your map awareness and general mechanical skills will have a much bigger impact than playing the "correct" heroes.
and yes early game supports become useless in 80% of the times in low 3k, no doubt about it
unless they have so much advantage early on that they are farmed for late game which is rare, so yea early game supports suck here
also there is no such thing as "offlaner" in low 3k, its always duo lane unless someone goes to jungle (which seems to be rare). whats the point on having strong lanes with disables and stuff if people dont fucking know how to use it? its like giving a 6 slotted tinker to a 2kish guy he wont have any clue of how to use that much utility he has
so it happens with supports the better thing i see is lion stunning (not when he should but atleast he uses it for harassing). supports here are fucking thrash i swear, they just stand in lane stealing xp from their carry, they will not zone out the "offlaners" cause its a duo lane so they can't trade hits with 2 heroes also they probably dont have the knowledge to zone out nor to pull, so they just stand there denying (or stealing your last hits) some creeps
i thank god whenever i play solo at a lane because i know that even if i dont farm (and i won't even with a support """""protecting""""" me) atleast i will get decent amount of xp without being punished for it because people here suck and they won't put pressure on an alone safelane Spectre........
again, people dont know how to effectively use their spells, its lion stunning for nothing so when you need that lockdown he doesnt have mana or the shit is on cooldown, CM who is a greater harasser will just stand there doing nothing, lich will rush aghs, AA will be playing around with his ult like if he was playing GunBound or some other aim shit based games.
so the point if people at 2k-low3k could pick mid game carries instead (like jugg, slark etc) of going for super late games they would beat the shit out of most of the "correct" lineups in that same rating. i know im putting this out of my ass but thats what it looks like
also the carries are retarded don't get me wrong void spend the game farming then he comes up with a fucking ethereal blade or some shit like that but atleast he will be capable of right clicking someone to death so im ok with that
Quiet mark just because no one can hit R at the same time for global ult then have blood seeker clean up with natures tping in and killing people I was expecting too much coordination. I should of just played checkers.
Caveman your team setup requires a very high level off cooridination, getting an AA ult off, plus having spec and NP port in at the right time, it's pretty advanced.
Now if you had gone like tide + enigma + warlock, that's a wambo combo any monkey can pull off. There's different levels of cheesiness going on here. I am all about coordinating disables and ults for team fights but you gotta keep it simple.
And lane support, it does matter. I can't go sniper solo vs weaver and mirana and get any farm. In fact those two heroes are so mobile they can potentially kill me under a tower. It happened in this game, I was getting wrecked safe lane by weaver and mirana until windranger stopped pulling jungle and came to help. We won late but without wr there it wouldn't have been good.
Here's another example of why picks matter, radiant has ogre, nyx, bristle, pudge and faceless void. I mean wtf, all melee with void? He's gonna chrono his entire team! On the other side we had sniper, viper, witch dr, wind ranger and clinzk. Unless void literally traps all 5 of us in chrono we will kill him in 3 seconds. Just extremely lopsided, we didn't even play well and we still won quite easily in the end.
Says the guy that never supports. Shut up chris.
I think that matching people to the same skill level promotes learning stagnation since they're matched with people that are just as bad as them. How can one improve without a difficulty increase in the game? If it's always the same shit, you get used to it and stop learning.
I was going to give examples and shit but i think that would just be taken out of context.
theres a difference between smurfing 4.5k to 5k and smurfing 2.2k to 4.5k
see if you can spot the difference @wink/raspharus
I think Juice's experiment was pretty accurate in a way:
if you play heroes that have high impact you will get to the rate you belong. THAT DOESNT MEAN YOU WILL GO UP, IT MEANS YOU WILL GO TO WHERE YOU BELONG. it may be +350 MMR from where ur from, it may be 2500 MMR from where ur from, it may be 0 MMR from where ur from, which means u where at u should be.
so why do you have to pick high impact heroes for that? well cause thats the easiest way to impact a game, picking heroes with snowball potential, so you have the max potential without depending much on your team (so if your teammates are holding you back, they will hold you less with those heroes), which means you can test how good you are.
if you are a fucking 5k playing on 2k mmr probably you'll be able to go up to 4.5k by playing support and stuff, but once you get at this point perhaps you'll need to have a higher impact in the game to maintain a 65% or more winrate.
the thing is that if you are way better than your actual rating, you will climb slowly on MMR because it has no smurfing system, so even if you stomp, you'll get +25 MMR and will play vs people 25 MMR higher than your previous match, you will not be jumping from 2 to 5k instantly, which is a safer way to get to your rating as you will be able to stomp several games (like climbing 1k MMR deserves atleast 40 games if you go 100% WR), while smurfing by the 3rd or 4th game you are already on your usual bracket.
that shows that there is no such thing as teammates holding you back because if that would be true, you should be able to win atleast 55~60% of your games, even if they suck bad, because MMR is universal, so your opponents are also badies (unlike when ur smurfing where you're put vs 5k players with braindead mates).
the thing is that people usually don't think about picks in general. you have the mistaken impression that the guy that is sucking in your game never had a good game in his life, so he doesn't belong to your bracket, which is not the case. sometimes i stomp a match so hard, go for like 30 kills, the next match i suck due to lane compositions or opponents really shutting me down, so the other 4 guys in my team may think that im a fucking braindead that dont belong my rating, while I myself know that last game i stomped (they have no way to know it). Thats what happens 80% of the time.
mainly on lower brackets where people are not consistent enough, their performances will go from awful to ROAD TO TI in like 2 games, where in 6k you should expect people to have a more reliable playstyle (but i assume that even there you'll eventually get people sucking hard)
also, dota is a game with a variety of skillset. lets say you are good at last hitting. Ok, player B is good at positioning. Fine.
So you see player B missing some last hits and you start "holy shit i cant count on this monkey", at the same time you are in a bad position yourself and get ganked, then the B guy thinks "fuck volvo why always with monkeys?". The moral of the story is that people only look upon what they are good at, basically because you need the same skill (of playing well) to know that you/others suck at it. For you, you weren't in a bad position (if you knew that you were, why you should be there?), but for anyone who is experienced enough, you were fucking dumb staying that, and the guy didn't know that his dmg output would be lower than the remaining health on the creep, so he missed it (if he was skilled, he would know that he would miss and he wouldnt miss lol).
Thats pretty much it. If you are there for a decently amount of time (like months) then there is no excuses, you belong there
im 2.4k but i rock its just these noobs on my team hold me back all the time.
sarcasm in-case you didn't notice
This thread is a good read (uncomon for buff threads)
Zenoth and 3kmmr the struggle is real are giving interesting points and this one made me giggle because i feel the same way:
"this is true, but the 4.5k players in my game will pick 3 mid heroes, flame the 5.6k player for not being able to support 3 of them successfully, then QQ on forums about shit teammates"
I fully agree there is a long range in which picks doesnt have an important impact, but map awarness and game sense decide the game outcome.
The only thing i have hard time to understand are 1000mmr variations. Have been at both maximum/minimum 2-3 times already.
also as a 3kish shitty player, i can assure you that lineups dont fucking matter
every single game goes past 40 min mark doesnt matter if your team is dk pugna rhasta dp and tinker, the game will go past 40 min. so those 5 man carry team look awful but they are pretty functional as it is barely impossible to have nothing (item wise talking) in a 40+ minute game, even if there is no space for everybody farm consistantly you'll still get your farm sometimes and by that you'll have your shit
ive won several games where i thought "fuck man they are going to rape us early game, we fucking lost boys" and then a spectre start pwning noobies in the laning phase, etc. it all comes down to how you play, not what you play actually.. even in first page games i see there is hardly any coordination there so even if you pick a yolo wombo combo team chances are that you won't effectively use your combo at its max potential so you are favoring the 5 man carries there who are getting fat and will rape you late game
the most absurd lanes i've seen like i as magina mid vs a fucking viper and after 10 min i got more than 50cs which is great (i wouldn't get more in safelane with enemies harassing and creep steal from my support) in that circumstances. also i had games where our lineup was fucking good, 2 supps trilaning and protecting a spectre vs a 3 man mid (pudge, invoker and shadowfiend) 2 man carry (void and gyro) and we got rekt
none of us is a fucking pro so it doesnt matter how they do it, how they lane, where they put a certain hero because if they do it is because they have built a strategy over it, in pubs it simply do not exist so fuck if medusa is mid (i saw zenoth playing her there several times) and pudge on safelane, the team who has got better players will win if they all could put up their plays
even counterpicking is not that crucial in pubs because again ppl lack coordination and will not be able to shut you down if you are skilled enough to avoid it
^
Lineups dont matter how true.
2k trash player here tried to force a captains mode of zeus/bloodseeker/aa/spectre/natures prophet and everyone was in agreement to hit "R" at the same fucking time.
Hitting R at the same time is hard. There must of been a 40 second gap between our ults. I would have an easier time shaving a lesbian weight lifters fem nazi armpits than having everyone count backwards from 3 on here man. Fucking retarded.
Sleave you are contradicting yourself. If every game goes past 40 mins then it absolutly matters what you pick and early game supports become worthless like CM, Lion to a degree, shadow shaman though his serpent wards rock later. If every game is going past 40 mins you should pick carries all the time.
And saying they all go that long is a fallacy. Your last page of games, 5 went over 40 mins. 7 were between 30-40 and 2 were under 30. Games are won mid game now, that 20 min to 30 min time frame. If you can't fight in there game is over.
Picks absolutely matter I can generally tell which team will win in my matches just by looking at picks. My last two games:
Radiant riki, bh, pudge, disruptor, sniper
Dire doom, spec, weaver, shadow demon, invoker
Guess dire win. Result dire win.
Both teams carry heavy but two stealthers on same team means even more incentive to wards. Plus dire has better disable.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/740167166
Radiant lich, aa, bristle, sf, pa
Dire sniper, lycan, ss, slark, necro
Guess dire win, result dire win. Teams seem fairly close but dire team has ridiculous push with shrapnel, serpent wards, lycan and necro. This is one of those games that probably ends up with a score of 30-30 but dire has mega creeps while radiant struggles to kill at the t2s.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/740129108
"Lineups dont matter how true."
Your lineup does matter, you picked a cheese lineup based on combining spec, aa and zeus ults. Aa's ult takes timinig to pull off. You picked two mid heros. I mean that's still a winnable match cus of rat np and spec + aa is a strong lane but who's your offlane? It's not ideal.
Picks are like the single most important aspect of 3k ish play because people arent' that good to carry with non convential stuff. Your team needs strong lanes, usually disables, some sort of push and some sort of carry.
@Mark ofc they matter the thing is that they dont matter as much as people think, in low tier games your map awareness and general mechanical skills will have a much bigger impact than playing the "correct" heroes.
and yes early game supports become useless in 80% of the times in low 3k, no doubt about it
unless they have so much advantage early on that they are farmed for late game which is rare, so yea early game supports suck here
also there is no such thing as "offlaner" in low 3k, its always duo lane unless someone goes to jungle (which seems to be rare). whats the point on having strong lanes with disables and stuff if people dont fucking know how to use it? its like giving a 6 slotted tinker to a 2kish guy he wont have any clue of how to use that much utility he has
so it happens with supports the better thing i see is lion stunning (not when he should but atleast he uses it for harassing). supports here are fucking thrash i swear, they just stand in lane stealing xp from their carry, they will not zone out the "offlaners" cause its a duo lane so they can't trade hits with 2 heroes also they probably dont have the knowledge to zone out nor to pull, so they just stand there denying (or stealing your last hits) some creeps
i thank god whenever i play solo at a lane because i know that even if i dont farm (and i won't even with a support """""protecting""""" me) atleast i will get decent amount of xp without being punished for it because people here suck and they won't put pressure on an alone safelane Spectre........
again, people dont know how to effectively use their spells, its lion stunning for nothing so when you need that lockdown he doesnt have mana or the shit is on cooldown, CM who is a greater harasser will just stand there doing nothing, lich will rush aghs, AA will be playing around with his ult like if he was playing GunBound or some other aim shit based games.
so the point if people at 2k-low3k could pick mid game carries instead (like jugg, slark etc) of going for super late games they would beat the shit out of most of the "correct" lineups in that same rating. i know im putting this out of my ass but thats what it looks like
also the carries are retarded don't get me wrong void spend the game farming then he comes up with a fucking ethereal blade or some shit like that but atleast he will be capable of right clicking someone to death so im ok with that
Quiet mark just because no one can hit R at the same time for global ult then have blood seeker clean up with natures tping in and killing people I was expecting too much coordination. I should of just played checkers.
Cpt. Caveman3 hours ago
>Says the guy that never supports. Shut up chris.
did you even check my profile once before you opened your mouth?
Caveman your team setup requires a very high level off cooridination, getting an AA ult off, plus having spec and NP port in at the right time, it's pretty advanced.
Now if you had gone like tide + enigma + warlock, that's a wambo combo any monkey can pull off. There's different levels of cheesiness going on here. I am all about coordinating disables and ults for team fights but you gotta keep it simple.
And lane support, it does matter. I can't go sniper solo vs weaver and mirana and get any farm. In fact those two heroes are so mobile they can potentially kill me under a tower. It happened in this game, I was getting wrecked safe lane by weaver and mirana until windranger stopped pulling jungle and came to help. We won late but without wr there it wouldn't have been good.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/734398702
Here's another example of why picks matter, radiant has ogre, nyx, bristle, pudge and faceless void. I mean wtf, all melee with void? He's gonna chrono his entire team! On the other side we had sniper, viper, witch dr, wind ranger and clinzk. Unless void literally traps all 5 of us in chrono we will kill him in 3 seconds. Just extremely lopsided, we didn't even play well and we still won quite easily in the end.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/738323965