@Sam
Just some dumb fuck who lives in first world country who doesn't even know how hard it is living in third world country compared to where they live right now and funny thing is he mocked the guy who probably live in third world country which of course think that he overacting to the problem, LOL.
In conclusion, posts that written by spoiled kid. What a fucking joke.
I don't even bother to read them.
But since i'm living in Australia i can't say anything too lol.
Well, because my family is Chinese, and I already have best grades, they'll probably not let me. Ah, I'm nowhere near good enough anyway.
/derail
People treat money seriously, if I had a low living standard I could imagine ditching friends to get a shot at the prize pool. Fortunately I'm not that stingy (but others might call me wasteful). Eh.
Ok hotshot 9v1, what the hell do you do and how much money do you make? Enlighten us as to how easy it is to make over 6 figures.
You're delusional to just list a bunch of professions and say if you just keep at it you'll be the tops of that profession some day making millions of dollars! If it was so easy everyone would do it. And yes, winning TI14 is EASIER than being a BRAIN SURGEON and you ridiciulous? The difference is only one team can win TI and there are more than one brain surgeons in the world. That doesn't mean it's harder to play a video game, it just means there is less opportunity to win the biggest tournament.
I'm using american dollars. 60,000 usd a year is very typical starting salary for an engineer with a 4 year degree.
And why do these guys become pro gamers? You really think they could all become doctors or lawyers instead? Doubtful. I'm sure many of them would go to school or do something but they do gaming cus they like it.
At the end of the day, of course Era wants to compete, too much at stake, and of course his team doesn't want him too for same reasons. I'd be pissed if I were on the team, showing up to all the practices and some guy can't attend yet gets equal share in the results and responsibility.
Ok i enlighten you how to make a shitload of money in law in germany, and how my current status is:
Im finished my first law exam and currently doing my law clerkship. That is what everyone, who wants to practise law has to go through in germany. My current salary is only 950 Euros per month. That is what the goverment pays the law clerks in germany. No matter how good you are, you have to go through this practical phase and take this little money. I make another 1k euros by working for the university, giving lectures for 2 hours a week.
The first exam and the second law exam in germany are both like a big bar exam.
To be allowed to take the first exam you study 3 years law minimum and have to take 18 written exams and write 3 thesis. If you finish this, you are allowed to take the first staatsexamen. 40% of all students fail at this part.
For the first exam itself you prepar 1-2 years. Normally people visit private law instutions for this (so called Repetitor), to get prepared for it. Since the university does not prepare you proper. It costs between 130 and 200 Euros per month.
The exam is held by the ministry of justice. You take the exam in a courtbuilding. The exam consists of 6 written examinations (5 hours each, written in 2 weeks) and 1 oral exam (1 oral presentation of case for 15 min after 1 hour prepration, and 1 hour examination talk). They can ask you everything that the university should have teached you in the 3 years in this exams. You do not know for what part you have to prepare, so you have to memorize the whole first part that way, that you can give smart answers in 5 hours under big pressure. The pressure comes because of this:
30% of all Students fail this part, the top 10% has a big chance to work later for the big law firms and the state, but they all have to pass the practical intercourse (also with good grades). The grades go from 0-18. With 9 you allready made it in the top 10%. With 11.5 youa re in the top 2%, with 14 you are in the top 0.03%. The equivalent of this degree would be a master.
AFter this you can apply for the practical intercourse. It is organized by the ministry of justice.
In the practical intercourse you work 2 years in different stations. 5 Month for a Judge, 3 month for a prosecutor, 3 month for the government, 10 month for a lawyer. During this time you have write papers on cases (decisions, or surveys) in every station. You get a testimony for every station. You also have theorycourses. In those you write exams over a period of 2 years.
After the 2 years you take the 2. Staatsexam. It is held by the ministry of justice (in a court again). It consists of 8-10 written examinations and again the oral part. The oral part is like in the first staatsexam. If you manage to finish this under the best 10% you can work everywhere, and make all the money you want to. 15% fail this part.
Best part: You are allowed to take the Exam 2 times. If you fail 2 times, you are out, without a degree and without a chance of getting any nice job :D.
I finished the first exam under the top 5%, made another masterdegree, worked 1 year fulltime at the university, about to finish my phd. Now I am in the practical stations (currently at a court for cilvillaw). I have to make it under the top 10% again in the 2. Staatsexamen, to become a judge. Judges do not make the same money as lawyers, but the job is way cooler. If you take everything together (insurance, pension plan etc.) Judges make the same money, as someone who makes 70 K in private enterprise. By this time I will be 30.
The lawyers in the lawfirms work 70 hours+ per week, and not many of them make it to the top to make millions.
Thats the starting salary. Arround 140 K p.a. for a lawyer at freshfields.
Do not get my wrong. Thats not what every lawyer makes in germany. But this is what the top of the field gets. And no matter how hard it sounds to get there... Out of 15.000, who take the exam every year, 1500 have the grades to get there. Basically if you reach the top 10% in law in germany, you can chose your job. For the lower 40% of the jurists, getting a paid job is pretty hard. They make nearly no money. The spread is pretty huge here, all based on your grades in the 1. and 2. staatexamen.
The top 10% of all dota players will get flamed on dotabuff for beeing scrubs. top 10% in dota is like 3.7 K MMR.
Dota is a game that is pretty difficult. I really believe, that everybody, who is smart enough to become a progamer, is somehow smart enough to finish a well paid academic degree. They do gaming because they like it. From a pure economical point of view a gaming career is not desirable. There is no guarantee, that you make it to the top. Sure, there is no guarantee, that you can make it to the top of your field in law, too. But getting in the top 10% sounds way easier than getting in the top 0.001% in a given population. Thats just statistical facts.
Mark asked how to make a lot of money, and I explained. It is the same in the U.S., just a little more fair. In germany you do not need to pay a lot of toutions, to get a worthy law degree. In the US you need a high SAT to get to a top College and Law School after that (all expensive). You think someone who finished Harvard Law School works for 60k p.a.? A toplawyer in the US makes also 160k Dollars p.a. at the start of his career. If you make your way up in the lawfirms you will earn millions. Making your way up is easy. Just work 70 hours+ for 15-20 years.
Would recommend it more than trying to become a progamer.
Dude do you realize what you listed? You wrote like a freakin thesis on all the shit you have to go through to just get considered in your field. It is WAAAY harder than becoming a pro dota player. Gaming is just a niche is all. Because if the demand for gamers was as high as the demand for these other professions then top 10% of dota players would also make nice salaries. I think you are overstating how hard it is to be a pro gamer and understating how difficult some real life professions are. Your attitude was basically "if these gamers put as much time and effort into any highly trained field they'd be automatic millionaires." That's what we're disputing. It's simply not true. Not everyone has the aptitude to be a highly paid lawyer or even an entry level engineer.
I mean you're top 5% in your class and you only make ~30 usd a year lol. It is hard! Don't sell yourself short thinking gamers somehow are more skilled.
Edit: "Making your way up is easy." That's what we're debating. I vehemently disagree. Isn't that some other psychological thing, not dunning-kruger but some other thing discussed on this forum where when you find something easy you automatically assume it's easy for everyone else?
I too would not recommend trying to become a pro gamer though cus there's no demand for them.
saying "get a phd blablabla" looks easier than it really is
its like "oh dude to be a pro gamer all you have to do is play a game u like and you'll get 100k/year, easy"
I make 30 k now, cause my education is not done. There are no shortcuts. To become a professional in a higly competitive field it takes app. 10.000 hours, to make it to the top (-+ a few k).
You can put this 10.000 hours into dota 2, or in law or in jazzmusic, or in modern dance.
Guess what will grant you the highest income and the best chances of a high income. Becoming a top 10% performer in any given field is hard. Becoming a top 10% dotaplayer just wont get you anywhere. Im at 4.3k MMR. I invested like 2.5k Hours in Dota 2 (wich I should have spent on my phd thesis, but did not), and another 2k hours in dota 1. I am not even close to a level, where I could even make 1 dollar with dota. I would have to double my investment, to actually have a chance to make money with it. Also at the age of 28-30 your hand eye coordination starts to get worse by time (we are all getting older). There are barley chances to be a progamer beyond beeing 35 years old.
So you have to get to the toplvl at an early stage of your life. To be a really good jazz guitar player you have to spent hours and hours on your skills. A friend of mine studies music and tries to make a living with it. Its just nearly impossible to get gud money and a safe job with playing jazz music.
Dota is comparable to jazz. Id rather invest my time on math, law, medicine or enginieering. Its just safer, you can make it longer there etc. I do not say getting a phd is easy. But its still easier than making a good chunk of money with video games. Everyone who is gifted enough to make his living with video games and who puts the efford into a game, would get more, if he invested his talent and time in a well paid academic field.
So on topic again:
Fnatic is a participant in a highly competitive field, with small chances of making big money. The job they are doing is highly limited by time, since they can only do it from beeing 15-30 (never seen an oder progamer). So it is a right decision to take the chance on playing ti 4, with the best 5 man stack they can get.
Its safer AND easier to make a good living out of it. Not easier to accomplish. But more ppl have chance to make money. The market is simply bigger. There is more money for lawyers than for progamers to make.
I personally hate the studystuff. For my 1 Exam I did not take the private paid courses and summarised the whole stuff the university should have teached us on 1400 Pages our of maybe 14000 Bookpages. I read my own notes like 6 times. On top I took 50 test exams a 5 hours, and solved several hundred cases for training purposes (written and oral). Nobody can enjoy this.
Well you can better spend some years of your early 20's (in my case the whole 20's), than sitting in a shitjob for the rest of your life. Its not like I had no fun and life during this time. Its like a normal 9 to 5 job. I guess for engineering its the same. With a 40-50 Hour workload from year 3 on, it can be done. With my phd running I have to work currently more like 50-60 hours, but you get used to it.
Other fields are just way easier to handle and do not require so much afford modern arts, eductaion, philosophie, political science etc.).
Engineering can be really a tough bitch. Some friends study it, and it seems really roug. Esp electrical engineering.
So keep up your studies, make money, get bitches ;).
And btw:
Envy describes in his post, that beeing a pro sucks many hours a day. Watching replays and spamming heros (ok, I like spamming heros). Working on mechanics etc. Progaming is a real friggin job.
And at the post, that fnatic should not go without Era.
If era is a "true" friend (and buisnessman) he would insist on them going to TI 4. He would have no benefits, if nobody goes there. So why force others in a shitty situation, because you are in one. Its not like they will sit together infront of the TV and cuddle, while watching the others teams compete for a big chunk of money and fame.
but i try to understand era's side too
he feels like he was betrayed because at the same time he was telling valve he was just fine, his teammates were kicking him out.
eventhough its their job i assume they are also friends, just like na'vi (despite xboct and kuroky weirdo relationship).. they have been playing around for quite some time and im pretty sure they are friends
Just some dumb fuck who lives in first world country who doesn't even know how hard it is living in third world country compared to where they live right now and funny thing is he mocked the guy who probably live in third world country which of course think that he overacting to the problem, LOL.
In conclusion, posts that written by spoiled kid. What a fucking joke.
I don't even bother to read them.
mind you Yfay, "Psychological anxiety is a sign that he has low emotional intelligence, still not valid reason compared to fear's injury."
emotional intelligence is both independent of psychological anxiety and has nothing to do with whether or not he should go to TI4 lol. he had panic attacks, it's completely valid to say that that's an injury of sorts.
i'm still on valve's side though, because i think Era did actually want to play and his team tried to stop him. i mean yeah, if i was in Fnatic's situation, i'd probably also try to stop Era from playing, just cos of the money at stake, but that doesn't mean it'd be the right thing to do.
Wtf did this thread turn into?
^About money
@Sam
Just some dumb fuck who lives in first world country who doesn't even know how hard it is living in third world country compared to where they live right now and funny thing is he mocked the guy who probably live in third world country which of course think that he overacting to the problem, LOL.
In conclusion, posts that written by spoiled kid. What a fucking joke.
I don't even bother to read them.
But since i'm living in Australia i can't say anything too lol.
I'd like to a pro gamer. It would be cool.
Well, because my family is Chinese, and I already have best grades, they'll probably not let me. Ah, I'm nowhere near good enough anyway.
/derail
People treat money seriously, if I had a low living standard I could imagine ditching friends to get a shot at the prize pool. Fortunately I'm not that stingy (but others might call me wasteful). Eh.
Ok hotshot 9v1, what the hell do you do and how much money do you make? Enlighten us as to how easy it is to make over 6 figures.
You're delusional to just list a bunch of professions and say if you just keep at it you'll be the tops of that profession some day making millions of dollars! If it was so easy everyone would do it. And yes, winning TI14 is EASIER than being a BRAIN SURGEON and you ridiciulous? The difference is only one team can win TI and there are more than one brain surgeons in the world. That doesn't mean it's harder to play a video game, it just means there is less opportunity to win the biggest tournament.
I'm using american dollars. 60,000 usd a year is very typical starting salary for an engineer with a 4 year degree.
And why do these guys become pro gamers? You really think they could all become doctors or lawyers instead? Doubtful. I'm sure many of them would go to school or do something but they do gaming cus they like it.
At the end of the day, of course Era wants to compete, too much at stake, and of course his team doesn't want him too for same reasons. I'd be pissed if I were on the team, showing up to all the practices and some guy can't attend yet gets equal share in the results and responsibility.
@ Mark
Ok i enlighten you how to make a shitload of money in law in germany, and how my current status is:
Im finished my first law exam and currently doing my law clerkship. That is what everyone, who wants to practise law has to go through in germany. My current salary is only 950 Euros per month. That is what the goverment pays the law clerks in germany. No matter how good you are, you have to go through this practical phase and take this little money. I make another 1k euros by working for the university, giving lectures for 2 hours a week.
The first exam and the second law exam in germany are both like a big bar exam.
To be allowed to take the first exam you study 3 years law minimum and have to take 18 written exams and write 3 thesis. If you finish this, you are allowed to take the first staatsexamen. 40% of all students fail at this part.
For the first exam itself you prepar 1-2 years. Normally people visit private law instutions for this (so called Repetitor), to get prepared for it. Since the university does not prepare you proper. It costs between 130 and 200 Euros per month.
The exam is held by the ministry of justice. You take the exam in a courtbuilding. The exam consists of 6 written examinations (5 hours each, written in 2 weeks) and 1 oral exam (1 oral presentation of case for 15 min after 1 hour prepration, and 1 hour examination talk). They can ask you everything that the university should have teached you in the 3 years in this exams. You do not know for what part you have to prepare, so you have to memorize the whole first part that way, that you can give smart answers in 5 hours under big pressure. The pressure comes because of this:
30% of all Students fail this part, the top 10% has a big chance to work later for the big law firms and the state, but they all have to pass the practical intercourse (also with good grades). The grades go from 0-18. With 9 you allready made it in the top 10%. With 11.5 youa re in the top 2%, with 14 you are in the top 0.03%. The equivalent of this degree would be a master.
AFter this you can apply for the practical intercourse. It is organized by the ministry of justice.
In the practical intercourse you work 2 years in different stations. 5 Month for a Judge, 3 month for a prosecutor, 3 month for the government, 10 month for a lawyer. During this time you have write papers on cases (decisions, or surveys) in every station. You get a testimony for every station. You also have theorycourses. In those you write exams over a period of 2 years.
After the 2 years you take the 2. Staatsexam. It is held by the ministry of justice (in a court again). It consists of 8-10 written examinations and again the oral part. The oral part is like in the first staatsexam. If you manage to finish this under the best 10% you can work everywhere, and make all the money you want to. 15% fail this part.
Best part: You are allowed to take the Exam 2 times. If you fail 2 times, you are out, without a degree and without a chance of getting any nice job :D.
I finished the first exam under the top 5%, made another masterdegree, worked 1 year fulltime at the university, about to finish my phd. Now I am in the practical stations (currently at a court for cilvillaw). I have to make it under the top 10% again in the 2. Staatsexamen, to become a judge. Judges do not make the same money as lawyers, but the job is way cooler. If you take everything together (insurance, pension plan etc.) Judges make the same money, as someone who makes 70 K in private enterprise. By this time I will be 30.
The lawyers in the lawfirms work 70 hours+ per week, and not many of them make it to the top to make millions.
http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Freshfields-Germany-Salaries-EI_IE32506.0,11_IL.12,19_IN96.htm
Thats the starting salary. Arround 140 K p.a. for a lawyer at freshfields.
Do not get my wrong. Thats not what every lawyer makes in germany. But this is what the top of the field gets. And no matter how hard it sounds to get there... Out of 15.000, who take the exam every year, 1500 have the grades to get there. Basically if you reach the top 10% in law in germany, you can chose your job. For the lower 40% of the jurists, getting a paid job is pretty hard. They make nearly no money. The spread is pretty huge here, all based on your grades in the 1. and 2. staatexamen.
The top 10% of all dota players will get flamed on dotabuff for beeing scrubs. top 10% in dota is like 3.7 K MMR.
Dota is a game that is pretty difficult. I really believe, that everybody, who is smart enough to become a progamer, is somehow smart enough to finish a well paid academic degree. They do gaming because they like it. From a pure economical point of view a gaming career is not desirable. There is no guarantee, that you make it to the top. Sure, there is no guarantee, that you can make it to the top of your field in law, too. But getting in the top 10% sounds way easier than getting in the top 0.001% in a given population. Thats just statistical facts.
Please don't scare away Sam with your massive walls of crap, I would actually like him to post more.
Mark asked how to make a lot of money, and I explained. It is the same in the U.S., just a little more fair. In germany you do not need to pay a lot of toutions, to get a worthy law degree. In the US you need a high SAT to get to a top College and Law School after that (all expensive). You think someone who finished Harvard Law School works for 60k p.a.? A toplawyer in the US makes also 160k Dollars p.a. at the start of his career. If you make your way up in the lawfirms you will earn millions. Making your way up is easy. Just work 70 hours+ for 15-20 years.
Would recommend it more than trying to become a progamer.
Dude do you realize what you listed? You wrote like a freakin thesis on all the shit you have to go through to just get considered in your field. It is WAAAY harder than becoming a pro dota player. Gaming is just a niche is all. Because if the demand for gamers was as high as the demand for these other professions then top 10% of dota players would also make nice salaries. I think you are overstating how hard it is to be a pro gamer and understating how difficult some real life professions are. Your attitude was basically "if these gamers put as much time and effort into any highly trained field they'd be automatic millionaires." That's what we're disputing. It's simply not true. Not everyone has the aptitude to be a highly paid lawyer or even an entry level engineer.
I mean you're top 5% in your class and you only make ~30 usd a year lol. It is hard! Don't sell yourself short thinking gamers somehow are more skilled.
Edit: "Making your way up is easy." That's what we're debating. I vehemently disagree. Isn't that some other psychological thing, not dunning-kruger but some other thing discussed on this forum where when you find something easy you automatically assume it's easy for everyone else?
I too would not recommend trying to become a pro gamer though cus there's no demand for them.
saying "get a phd blablabla" looks easier than it really is
its like "oh dude to be a pro gamer all you have to do is play a game u like and you'll get 100k/year, easy"
I make 30 k now, cause my education is not done. There are no shortcuts. To become a professional in a higly competitive field it takes app. 10.000 hours, to make it to the top (-+ a few k).
You can put this 10.000 hours into dota 2, or in law or in jazzmusic, or in modern dance.
Guess what will grant you the highest income and the best chances of a high income. Becoming a top 10% performer in any given field is hard. Becoming a top 10% dotaplayer just wont get you anywhere. Im at 4.3k MMR. I invested like 2.5k Hours in Dota 2 (wich I should have spent on my phd thesis, but did not), and another 2k hours in dota 1. I am not even close to a level, where I could even make 1 dollar with dota. I would have to double my investment, to actually have a chance to make money with it. Also at the age of 28-30 your hand eye coordination starts to get worse by time (we are all getting older). There are barley chances to be a progamer beyond beeing 35 years old.
So you have to get to the toplvl at an early stage of your life. To be a really good jazz guitar player you have to spent hours and hours on your skills. A friend of mine studies music and tries to make a living with it. Its just nearly impossible to get gud money and a safe job with playing jazz music.
Dota is comparable to jazz. Id rather invest my time on math, law, medicine or enginieering. Its just safer, you can make it longer there etc. I do not say getting a phd is easy. But its still easier than making a good chunk of money with video games. Everyone who is gifted enough to make his living with video games and who puts the efford into a game, would get more, if he invested his talent and time in a well paid academic field.
So on topic again:
Fnatic is a participant in a highly competitive field, with small chances of making big money. The job they are doing is highly limited by time, since they can only do it from beeing 15-30 (never seen an oder progamer). So it is a right decision to take the chance on playing ti 4, with the best 5 man stack they can get.
The difference is that pro gamers usually enjoy playing high amounts of time
Do you enjoy studying high amount of times ? Personally i like engineering a lot and still i dont enjoy studying
Its safer to study, not easier.
Its safer AND easier to make a good living out of it. Not easier to accomplish. But more ppl have chance to make money. The market is simply bigger. There is more money for lawyers than for progamers to make.
I personally hate the studystuff. For my 1 Exam I did not take the private paid courses and summarised the whole stuff the university should have teached us on 1400 Pages our of maybe 14000 Bookpages. I read my own notes like 6 times. On top I took 50 test exams a 5 hours, and solved several hundred cases for training purposes (written and oral). Nobody can enjoy this.
Uff that sounds hard mate, personally engineering is driving me insane.
I have a friend that its already 4 years in civil engineering and he is going to need at least 2 more.
Well you can better spend some years of your early 20's (in my case the whole 20's), than sitting in a shitjob for the rest of your life. Its not like I had no fun and life during this time. Its like a normal 9 to 5 job. I guess for engineering its the same. With a 40-50 Hour workload from year 3 on, it can be done. With my phd running I have to work currently more like 50-60 hours, but you get used to it.
Other fields are just way easier to handle and do not require so much afford modern arts, eductaion, philosophie, political science etc.).
Engineering can be really a tough bitch. Some friends study it, and it seems really roug. Esp electrical engineering.
I am doing Telecommunications engineering, and its true that the harderst part is the eletric one.
So keep up your studies, make money, get bitches ;).
And btw:
Envy describes in his post, that beeing a pro sucks many hours a day. Watching replays and spamming heros (ok, I like spamming heros). Working on mechanics etc. Progaming is a real friggin job.
And at the post, that fnatic should not go without Era.
If era is a "true" friend (and buisnessman) he would insist on them going to TI 4. He would have no benefits, if nobody goes there. So why force others in a shitty situation, because you are in one. Its not like they will sit together infront of the TV and cuddle, while watching the others teams compete for a big chunk of money and fame.
but i try to understand era's side too
he feels like he was betrayed because at the same time he was telling valve he was just fine, his teammates were kicking him out.
eventhough its their job i assume they are also friends, just like na'vi (despite xboct and kuroky weirdo relationship).. they have been playing around for quite some time and im pretty sure they are friends
pretty sad for excali, he's been a great guy in our team attempt and he'd deffinetely deserve goin' TI for the performances with fnatic lately.
Just some dumb fuck who lives in first world country who doesn't even know how hard it is living in third world country compared to where they live right now and funny thing is he mocked the guy who probably live in third world country which of course think that he overacting to the problem, LOL.
In conclusion, posts that written by spoiled kid. What a fucking joke.
I don't even bother to read them.
all i read what 'practical intercourse' huehuehue
mind you Yfay, "Psychological anxiety is a sign that he has low emotional intelligence, still not valid reason compared to fear's injury."
emotional intelligence is both independent of psychological anxiety and has nothing to do with whether or not he should go to TI4 lol. he had panic attacks, it's completely valid to say that that's an injury of sorts.
i'm still on valve's side though, because i think Era did actually want to play and his team tried to stop him. i mean yeah, if i was in Fnatic's situation, i'd probably also try to stop Era from playing, just cos of the money at stake, but that doesn't mean it'd be the right thing to do.