Ah! Race car mom/sny/drums. No one escapes the fight...
Must be fun to play him like that.
BKB viable, if the game gets longer?
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/978423202
With mkb instead of sy if needed.
I personaly find dagger more usefull than bkb on him, as you are bad beeing initiated (and if so, bkb alone will not be enough, thus you'll have to cut even one more dps item) while dagger provide an huge threat zone arround you (not to mention ult + dagger for escape).
Also, especially with last buff to his bat, getting as can give you pretty fast the 1 attack / slash in bonus. So you no longer need agahnims to get a lot of hit for free. And you even end up doing the same amount of damage as agahnims during your ult, but dealing MUCH MORE damage when ultimate is over (especially if you sell sy toward mkb in my build)
Thanks matrice... I prolly will sneak peek at your game later.
A question, if you dagger to a safe spot during omni slash you will end it prematurely. I mean you can't shift queue the dagger then, correct?
Also, I noticed that Quell had one game with dagger too, couple days ago. (Saw him on twitch a while ago when he spanked MoonMeander with a Jugg, one reason I got curious about this hero)
So seeing a Jugg getting a scepter and a bfury in your team means that hes not using the hero to his full potential.
Yyeah, unless you are some kind of support/roaming jugg, agahnims is pretty bad item choice
Also i had good result late game for a double battlefury build, totally raping the 5 opponents in 1 ult (without scepter)
-that build was however really weak early game, after laning phase-
Aghs, usually - better utility. You'll get a fuckton of attack speed later on no matter what (and cap out the extra slashes during Omni anyway). One thing people seem to forget when it comes to playing this hero is that he is on of the most versatile carries in terms of item builds, so you should always adapt to the game and the picks. For instance with the more frequent PA picks MKB is a must have #2-3 big item IF the PA tanks up (otherwise just Omnislash her ass, she can only evade the bonus attacks during Jugger's ult).
When you have ~400 IAS and Aghs, you can ulti inside a 5v5 teamfight with some creeps and still kill like 3 people. So, I won't say Aghs is bad on him.
Ok, if I understand this correctly...
Lets say past 35 minutes your three extra ~200 damage slashes and two extra regular attacks (if you are lucky) won't help ya. But if you had invested the 4200 on AS and/or damage, then your regular attacks would make a bigger impact whatever your omni slashing or right clicking.
But I have to agree, you gotta have a feel on how the game will turn out so you can buy the right stuff. I'm not asking for an optimal build just that it seems like Aga is not that core on Jugg. It's more situational (as I understand it)
Edit:
And yes... AC is probably a nice pickup, three in one, tank up and increase damage and AS. (if you have the oumph behind it)
Lol I read "AS" as "AC" my bad. But focus on AS is way better as I said I hate Aghs.
You don't get it. You don't "if you're lucky, you can get extra auto-attack when you're using Omnislash". When you're using Omnislash you ARE attacking non-stop, without any pauses or stuff. Even in the lvl 1 Omnislash with 3 hits there is at least one auto-attack, because spell gives you enough time to do it. If you have near max IAS and Aghs, lvl 3 Omnislash will give you at least 14 autoattacks (each can be critical and proc Mjolnir) ON TOP of extra 2500 physical damage. And you'll be invulnerable for the whole duration of this stuff.
You can't go max AS (or IAS uif you prefer the Increased Attack Speed acronym) if you have an Aga. Only perhaps in conjunction with the troll ult you will go that far, or that you build a Jugg squishy as hell.
And the lucky thingy is that mostly the target(s) are hopefully already dead after a couple of slashes. I don't think you as a Jugg should always aim for a 3-5 man omni slash.
You can only get a maximum of one extra autoattack per slash, so 12 slashes + 12 autoattacks (3 of which might be crits due to 25% chance)
>You can't go max AS (or IAS uif you prefer the Increased Attack Speed acronym) if you have an Aga. Only perhaps in conjunction with the troll ult you will go that far, or that you build a Jugg squishy as hell.
@netmask
To reach maximum extra attacks during Omnislash you don't require 400 IAS to begin with, and the build I usually aim for provides plenty of IAS, HP and even EHP.
source: I main Juggernaut
@Skyforger: I can see that and you are good at him, plus that you are an aghanim user. The thing is that your win rate win him have not gone up as much as other Jugg experts. You have increased in win rate, but compared to some other Jugg experts that uses Aghanim less, they have benefited more of it. That's just my point in the thread start...
This got me triggered, by using the Knight of End's statement and a custom build of a Jugg at lvl 25:
Treads+AC+Manta+Mjollnir+Bfly+Agha
Will give you 392 IAS (or 492 in AS)
The damage will be ~260 + 35% crit
12+12 omni in damage:
~2550 Omni slashes
~4250 Regular attacks
~480 Magical
Around 7300 total.
If you switch that Agha to lets say a Abyssal (I know its extreme but hes a 6 slotted basher Jugg):
Around 384 IAS
~350 in damage + 35% crit
9+9 Omni
~1910 Omni slashes
~4250 Regular attacks
~360 Magical
Be around 6500 in total damage.
That will be a difference of 800... Not so much to convince me to go for a Agha as core.
However if I switch the AC against with an Abyssal instead and using an Agha you might get a bigger damage output, but that will instead hurt your IAS.
I know its extreme, but I thought it would be fun just to see the difference. Math might be wrong... :)
@Knight Of End
No.
@netmask
The way I see it - Aghs increases your "invulnerable and unkiteable while smacking their asses" duration by 33% and also lowers its cooldown by 36%. Very good IMO.
Getting 6-slotted is unrealistic in my games (on average they end in 30-40 minutes). Also who are these Juggernaut experts you keep referring to?
True epsik-kun, good reason indeed. Also are you sure that 12 extra is not the limit. That means that the slashes does not interrupt the auto-attack.
Anyway, whatever build you go I myself will not flame a Jugg that skips the Agha (or uses it). The little brat hero is quite versiatile when it comes to builds.
Also I need to retrect my comment to Skyforger, a 67% win rate with the jugg past month is nothing more than awsome! Sorry about that statement of mine.
Edit:
Experts... Browsed the Jugg rankings for 750+ matches. Just took a handful of random players... I guess I didn't check your profile.
No offence taken. :)
This hero is indeed very versatile, that's why I wrote "he is on of the most versatile carries in terms of item builds". I mean you can go Dagon+Refresher and still own face or go jungling and support your team while transitiationing into a semi-carry - all this without being a liability, how cool is that?
Yes, I am sure. I tested it myself. Slashes do not interrupt autoattacks. Maybe they do, if you'll jump from target to target with the maximum possible distance, but when I used it on two heroes and some creeps, one particular hero received 5 Omnislash attacks and 7 autoattacks.
Also, going build I stated above is much, much cheaper, than going your usual 6 slots.
Ok, I believe ya.
Also, it was just an example on the items, I'm far from a Jugg-player as you can be.
if your attack time is 0.4 or lower then you should be able to attack once per slash i believe, which is what i've based my next calculations upon.
attack time = base attack time / (attack speed/100)
since we know attack time is 0.4 and base attack time is 1.4, rearranging gives us:
attack speed / 100 = base attack time / attack time
so attack speed = 100 x base attack time / attack time
attack speed = 100 x 1.4 / 0.4 = 350 attack speed. since heroes already start off with 100 attack speed, you need a total of 250 increased attack speed in order to attack once per omnislash.
agility values at lvs 11, 16 and 25:
starting agi = 20
agi gain = 2.85 per level
lv 11: 20 + 2.85 x 11 = 51.35 -> 51 agility, so 199 AS needed from items in order to attack once per slash.
lv 16: 20 + 2.85 x 16 + 2 = 67.6 -> 68, 182 AS needed
the +2 comes from the 1 lv in attribute bonus you have to get when you're 16
lv 25: 20 + 2.85 x 25 + 20 = 111.25 -> 111, therefore 139 attack speed needed.
obviously it's nice to have 250 extra attack speed but not having it isn't that bad, since omnislash has pretty low uptime. sometimes it's better to be stronger in the 65 seconds where you don't have omnislash than to deal slightly extra damage when you do get to use it.
Once again - you do not attack per slash. You attack non-stop for the whole duration of Omnislash. Also, stacking IAS is great both for farm and fight potential, due to the fact Jugg has such an amazing BAT now.
Going PT>MoM>Mjol>Scepter>Bfly>Basher leave you somewhere around ~10 IAS below the cap, when MoM is on.
If your attack delay is greater than 0.4, you'll still get your extra hits - just less of them.
with a perfect 250 attack speed you'll attack at the same time as each slash is what im getting at. which helps if you have a desolator to apply the debuff if you're hitting multiple targets.
maximum attacks is 16 i think. if you're only using mom for the attack speed buff you can also just have a courier swap out items for something more useful once mom is activated.
@matrice Yea, thats actually good point. To be more precise then, is he more viable as a carry now instead of a walking ultimate?
I have seen this steroid hero do his ult and afterwards just slice up the remain standing heroes to shreds afterwards (e.g. not especially snowball games). Instead of ult:ing and then spin away cowardly to safety.
Would like to play him more often, but I guess there are more skill than you can expect handling this hero to his fully potential.
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Got curious about this hero when I watched couple of Jugg games and some of them involved a Jugg with an insane attack speed. Totally devastated Ember and a farmed PA one on one, just by right clicking them (basher juggs).
Have been browsing the player rankings and to me it seems those Juggernaut experts that tends go for AS instead of Scepter have gotten an increased win rate (based on the last months or so).
Does this mean that this guy is more viable as a late game carry now?