IMO they take too long to come online - need at least manta or a bkb to do anything. They are super vulnerable to ganks with no defensive capabilities. compare to a sniper drow all they need is treads mom to do major damage + the long range.
in the competitive scene first 20 min you can get throne so you need to be able to contribute in these fights. Beam or missile is very unreliable and does offer that much.
Pubs is another story because everything goes late game.
Do you even watch competative games? Where you saw 20 min games in this metagame?
Is that a serious question?
try to post something that contributes to the thread instead of analyzing comments K thnx bye
I think the buff to maelstorm was an indirect nerf to these "natural" aoe heroes.
They're good heroes. People are too attached to whatever is currently popular and are highly risk-averse. Obviously, in low-level pub games either of these heroes can utterly dominate and don't even need BKB to do it. Good luck winning when your team feeds Butterfly-Satanic-Manta Luna.
I struggle to see a luna farming that many items - it would require so much attention from supports that it would leave the enemy team's carry to free farm as well because they are defending luna over ganking the enemy carry player.
In the case of both carries being farmed as hell luna would lose to a pa or a more solid carry. Same with gyro.
to the comment above linda I do watch games and no I do not see very many 20min pro games. At least not since ti :)
but thats because they dont pick sh*t cores like luna...
one problem that does show up with any Agi carry is the ET spirit removes all ur armor, these two are super high stats heros and not raw armor, making them a lot less tanky at all stages of the game
additionally one core strats are really gimpy and require a really high level of execution
PA is a highly overrated "core." She's a bad carry, far worse than Luna, although they don't serve quite the same role. If they are both farmed Luna wins (so does Gyro), there's only a weird middle ground in the game where PA is better than either of them.
Again we aren't talking about "pro" games or whatever. We're talking about pub games, the kind where Snipers and PAs and Pudges are popular.
"Again we aren't talking about "pro" games or whatever. We're talking about pub games, the kind where Snipers and PAs and Pudges are popular."
pub metagame is based off of pro metagame. you never saw people picking naga mid until it was done in pros. offlane void was never a thing before pros. list goes on
@soultrap ET is a top pick/ban, meaning you would be wasting a first pick/ban meaning you have way more vulnerability in any sort of strategy that you pick. and thats not the only reason. again, you neglect the fact that most teams cant execute it, and even if they can, the amount of physical damage that exists in the midgame makes these heros useless as BKB and fight carries.
both heros are incredibly immobile and are the epitome of 4 protect 1. current meta shits on it.
The list goes on? That's why the most popular heroes are Pudge, PA, Sniper, because of their prevalence in pro games?
pa is done in pros
pudge pickers think they're dendi (anyone seen the dendi name references in games?)
sniper is a tutorial hero so w/e
^I don't think that all agility heroes are bad just because of ET. Besides, AC is solid item for Luna or Gyro to address armor reduction problems.
Elder Titan is one of the least-played heroes in the game, just like Io. He's one of the almost-never-seen heroes in pub games. Must be that pro metagame at work again. Certainly there are pro influences on pub picks, but there are way more important factors.
Actually I play Luna and I have a high win rate with her, yes I am in the Normal Level gaming where I play with/against noobs (myself included?,perhaps) but I find Luna very rewarding for these reasons:
1) Incredible nuking power in the 0-20mins (with Eclipse + Moon beam)
2) Incredible farming ability with glaive (kill entire creeps waves)
3) Very fast movement so most hero's find it hard to chase up
4) Destroys barracks and base with glaive and illusions
Many games I have won solely due to my efforts and I don't feel like I can do that with any other hero apart from Luna. She just destroys their base once you take T3 mid tower.
PS. I find Luna very good in this meta, I think people don't want to break their comfort zones of playing PA, Sniper and Drow.
I don't think gyro or luna are 4 protect 1. 4 protect 1 implies they can't fight until they have at least a couple items. That's like anti mage and to a lesser extent medusa (her ult's still great in fights she just does no damage). Gyro and luna both have powerful ults so they can contribute immediately at level 6 to team fights. They are very farm oriented, and as I recall used to be very popular. I'm just trying to figure out why they dropped off.
I also find sniper easier because most pubs can't deal with his range. Luna they can. Tis a bit harder for me.
i really like luna but am finding it hard to play her now since the rise of cw/tide type of offlaners and the blink no longer needing mana. Together with the trend of core heroes picking up fast mek, it allows bigger clashes and dives much earlier and its hard for luna to survive the constant pressure.
also now that you cant buy a 2nd bkb, if you buy one too early you suffer late, without one early you might not get to late...
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These guys never seem to be in my matches anymore and indeed on dotabuff they're 81st and 69th in popularity. I seem to remember them being a lot more popular before. Still see a ton of snipers, drow rangers and vipers and even a decent amount of shadowfiend and razor. But luna and gyro sightings seem rare.
I started thinking about it because of the spectre vs medusa thread and discussing hard carrys so I was taking mental inventory of the agi carries. To me gyro and luna are quite similar. Both can be strong in lane cus they have strong early nukes with rocket barrage and missile for gyro and beam for luna. Both have major nuke ultimates. Both have multi target abilities. They even build really similar items, often going for dominator to stack ancients, manta and an early bkb. But they don't really scale that well. All they do is have potential for multi target but they don't get more single target dps like a PA does with crit or a void does with longer ult and stronger bashes. Their strength seems to be farm ability and then massive aoe teamfight potential. So why aren't they getting picked more? Don't fit the meta?
How do you think they compare to more popular sniper and drow in terms of carry potential? I think their range is what hurts them here as they are just as squishy and need to be even closer to deal damage.