Phantom assassin (I think not really meta pick?) beats snipers ass so hard. Also not too bad vs troll.
Storm Qop Jugg -> Silencer
Axe Sniper Chen SF -> Bounty Hunter
I don't think there's a definite counter to troll.
PA for Sniper, dat quick gap closing
Clinkz or Veno for Axe, cause early on, Axe apparently can't tank Searing Arrows all too well, and Veno just keeps Axe from doing anything.
And Clinkz again for Troll and Jugg, in the mid game I buy Orchid for Jugg, and late game, I get a Vyse to fight Troll with. Pretty sure I imitated someone's Clinkz build from the Asian Championship.
Troll > Nevermore
Jugg > Nightcrawler
Storm> Natural Orchrid carriers
Axe > Nightcralwer
PA > Shadow Fiend
Morph full str / euls offlane mode and the 4.25 sec stun helps a lot in every game
I think PA only "beat" Sniper's ass if PA's team has 1-2 other gap closers. Otherwise if you're the only one with gap close then blink on Sniper = his team rapes you.
Q-W Invoker seems to be pretty good against troll. That Deafening Blast disarm is something that shouldn't be ignored.
Phantom lancer. Troll/sniper/jugg dont even have a chance.
PL will be top pick carry at TI5. First heard here
Timber>troll
Kunkka>everything. cuz yolo.
Kotol> mainstream squishy earlygame carry.
And omni>any carry. Cuz ulti.
Also. Doom>meta.
I think he means heroes that destroy the meta picks. Jugger/Troll/Sniper/Storm
1. Spirit breaker
2. Oracle
3. Clockwerk
Axe isn't even meta anymore, not even I pick Axe.
Well when PA was picked a ton I used razor. Razor is pretty good vs troll sometimes too cus troll pubs usually spam s&y and skadi now and don't have a lot of raw dmg so you can suck it all up and then still be hitting them with lightning bolts while you're stunned.
But I haven't played razor in a while. Medusa is working pretty well for me. I can usually keep up with the pub trolls in farm. This has really got to depend on your mmr. Most trolls at my mmr don't push towers at all, they afk farm woods forever and don't farm that fast and give medusa plenty of time to catch up. Medusa with her ult can go toe to toe with jugger and troll, just make sure jug has already casted his ult cus he can avoid getting stoned with it. Against sniper? Hard to close the gap but just kill his whole team then kill him I guess lol.
Another good pick and very underrated is Riki. Everyone at my mmr plays him wrong. Riki is a badass cus smoke is op. I had a riki who didn't even spec smoke til like level 10 a few games ago. But if you gank a troll with smoke he can't cast his axes or switch to ranged/melee or ult, and he misses you so he won't stack fervor. With a basher you can keep him in smoke quite a while, or just team up with some other disablers too. Smoke will keep jug from just popping blade fury and laughing in the face of other disablers as well as stop storm in his tracks too. Just don't be a retarded solo ganker, make sure you are in those team fights with crucial smoke use.
i'm using necro atm currently. Removing your enemy carry from the game helps minimize the effects of comeback mechanics etc.
ive been picking lina to counter meta before she became mainstream
now i have to play ta to counter lina cuz shes mainstream
Axe isn't meta anymore Badger cause there's tons more counters to him than there are to Jugg and Troll and Sniper. Anything that boosts damage at levels 1-3 like Clinkz's Searing Arrows give him hell, along with nukers. I just hope he falls into obscurity in the pubs like Centaur did, I hate Berserker's Call so much.
Necro man, I dont know why hes not picked more often. Removing a core from the game for dieback duration is what wins most late game games.
^
I was having trouble with him in 6.83 for a bit. I had changed over the patches from building Atos to building Meka to build Dagon first....
Then I found Blademail. Brown boots into Blademail every game now. It is so freaking good on necro.
Tbh anything works at my mmr. The meta pickers are usually so bad and have no idea how to build on the popular heroes. I see jugs rushing aghs instead of MoM, sniper with skadi first item etc
If I stopped trying to win with anti I'd get +500 mmr ez
Windranger :D
@concede
what pos do you play necro as? what mindset do you use when playing necro? does it ever get boring?
I'm not good at either, and bounty kinda sucks overall, but bounty hunter and riki are both very excellent counters to sniper, riki is good vs storm and troll too. Smoke lets your team follow up on storm with stuns that he can't evade and keeps troll from popping his axes and ult and makes him miss. Both can wipe sniper off the map if sniper goes out to farm alone. Even if enemy team spams sentries 1) that's a lot of gold their supports are wasting 2) riki still has a ton of utility in a team fight.
Edit: Meant storm and troll. rikis ok vs jug too, to silence the ult.
@hotsalza
I play any position and role with necro which is one of the reasons I think I am finding success with him recently. Mid, safelane carry, solo offlane or suppor will all work.
My starting items are almost always tangos + talisman unless I have to buy wards/courier, in which case I'll get tangos and ring of protection. After that it is always the same however. Brown boots and blade mail. I usually get chain mail and robe of the magi first, followed by boots if i'm in the offlane, then finish with broadsword. If I am mid, i forgo boots and just rush blade mail. After that I will either get Blink or aghs. If i can complete the aghs before level 14 I usually get it before blink. If not I go for blink first. Very game dependent, but the point is the majority of the aghs upgrade is from getting it before 16, after that it is only .3 damage multiplier increase and no buyback. Getting aghs is always a "safe bet" however and a good stat item. If you aren't sure you will need to stop a carries buyback to win the game, then it is worth getting it just in case. Dagon is situational depending on the game, but sometimes it is definitely worth it (it is usually a choice between blade mail or dagon or a late game dagon to help burst with ulti). Boots are situational, but all you really need is brown boots. treads for stat switching and phase for positioning and extra damage.
My mindset playing necro is hard to explain in detail, but I would say that once i get blade mail I like to bait out enemy initiations. I generally don't want to chase enemies in the early game. In late game team fights I want to keep my team and creep wave healed up. If I have blink I will try not to be on the front lines, however if i see the opportunity I will bink into a fight to ulti and heal/damage. Sadist is also really important to use properly for not only farming, but for getting massive regeneration in a fight.
ulti is great for killing an important carry stopping buy back, but you shouldn't be afraid to use it to pick off any enemy to create a 5v4 tower fight.
Its great how there are so many ways to build some heroes. I always go mek into shivas on necro these days. but i'm normal...
can you explain a bit more why you consider aghs a mid-game item for necro? aren't buybacks more important late game? the extra .3 multiplier can (almost) be got a lot cheaper with a veil.
are you sure your success with necro is your build and not that you are just better at dota than the other team?
^
I personally dislike meka necro now due to the increase in mek's mana cost in conjunction with the somewhat newer emphasis on his ulti and getting necro a blink. Sure blink costs no mana but it gives no stats, so early game you need to have mana for his ulti which is actually really high in mana cost. That and two death pulses will result in an oom necro if you aren't stacked on sadist.
As for aghs, I wasn't trying to say it was a mid game item vs a late game item in black and white. What I was trying to say is that necro's aghs has multiple bonsuses that only apply to level 1 and 2 of his ulti: Aghanim Upgrade: Increases damage per HP missing, decreases mana cost for Level 1, and decreases cooldown for levels 1 and 2. Units killed by Reaper's Scythe cannot buyback
Given that, if you get aghs late in the game, you dont get as much out of the item, and you may want to consider not purchasing it. While the .3 extra multiplier is certainly good, it is also often overkill. If I absolutely have to make sure sniper gets reapered, I wont be gambling on a .3 multipler often enough. I'll be dropping it knowing he is going to be below 50% when it goes off anyway just to make sure. If you think about it like that, the aghs is providing stats and taking way buyback ability. If you don't think you have to stop them from buying back (i.e. your are going to using it on anyone, or you know they aren't going to save for buyback, or you are going to focus on getting a pick off first and don't care if they waste their money on buyback), then aghs might not be the best pick. The ridiculously long death timer will still be there to help you win the game. I very often get aghs simply because I want to make sure I have it just in case, or I am not sure if they are saving for buyback, but if you are a better player than I am and are confident you don't need to stop a buy back, a Hex or shivas is probably a better item.
as for my success and being better.. well that may be part of it, but equally i have had team mates that are doing well. I have been pretty tilty in the early game this week and getting pissed at my team, but I have found that even if we are struggling late or I play badly, my necro will still be there mid game to heal, be tanky, force them to expend a lot to initiate on me while taking damage, or simply reaper people to give large death timers. I think blade mail is a really big part of it.
@dorkly - blade mail necro was in no way my idea. several of the top leaderboard players use blade mail now so I gave it a shot. Not for everyone I guess, but I would emphasis that it pretty much has to be a second item purchased or it is wasted.
sidenote: if you are playing with a pudge, Atos makes landing hooks unbelievably easy and reliable. If your pudge isn't completely awful and will work with you, get atos, slow people and watch him land every single hook. Pull em in, lock em down, reaper them, win game.
I got walls of flame for asking how to avoid running out of mana as Necro after the mek rework :)
For me, Shivas is the only core item - the survivability, mana and extra nuke are awesome. I guess i only really get mek as a stepping stone to it. Maybe I should be getting Blademail to fill that gap instead (brown boots>soul ring>blademail>shiva)
shivas is really expensive for a core item though, with a difficult build up. It is a top luxury item though.
blade mail -> bilnk -> shivas is totally legit. It is just that shivas is situational at that point, just like hex or bloodstone or nullstone.
aghs i just talked about and is less "situational" and more "will I be ok if I dont get it". Boots are also extremely situational for me. Brown boots are all that necro needs. I personally will go treads if i need more surivial and mana, while many go phase. If the game allows it however, I will always wait on brown boots until i can get BoTs, but if i'm dying alot ill get treads.
I still go mek with necro
I just love the item on him so much, probaby because i always get it at 12 min and most of the time the enemy team lacks a mek, so i just group up with my team and we go push towers, with necro on your team and a mek its almost imposible to lose a teamfight at this time of the game.
I do have problems with mana from time to time, you have to play smart and ALWAYS try to get a kill in the teamfight, if you dont get it you are fucked.
I only actually get aghs or blink after 40 minutes in the game, and if the games goes really late i swap my items for the eblade dagon 5 blink build, mostly because tanky necro sucks late game.
Usually with mek necro you have to aim to win the game at <30 min, so it doesnt really matter what you buy after it if you are winning. http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1317747403
If i dont win at 30 min with him game gets harder
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1332301639
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1284382989
By the way i dont know how can someone play necro without phase, the amount of kills i would lose without this item.
I guess if u go for blink you dont need phase.
Yea i think it is still viable but much more team support oriented now. It doesn't really help him farm at all, and gives practically no right click damage. A phase blademail necro actually hits really hard early game if you are into phase boots. +46 damage from items at 12-15 minutes into the game is great for ensuring reaper kills.
and yea with just brown boots sometimes i miss a kill, but my personal early to mid playstyle with blademail is more oriented towards holding my ground and forcing an opponent to come get me, and once I get blink it is much less critical. I can't count the number of times I have regened back up after getting a sadist kill and being at under 100 health though thanks to a str tread switch.
course now that I have talked at length about my necro playstyle, I am sure I will lose my next 10 matches with him.
Its true about the damage, i am going to try phase blademail
Good luck on your games by the way
necro has alot of styles, but i dont see you can play him without blink, he can snowball off that item alone
i think aghs is really underwhelming unless you want to push though, since thats the only time the buyback disabling becomes relevant
outside of blink you can build him anti-carry/burst nuker/frontline tank
Necro has a ton of options that are all good. I like treads into scythe though, gives decent right click dmg and scythe utility, but the point booster on aghs buildup is sometimes essential. As you said his ult is a ton of mana.
Concede blademail bloodseeker OP damage shit hasnt worked for a few months now it was patched... i never played BS when that was op.
i just looked at your recent games and it looked like you got it most of them.
what are you refering to
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What hero are you currently picking to "break the meta", in other words, what hero are you picking that is not one of the top picks, but you are using to punish the top picks?