General DiscussionTheory crafting - meta development and design (MDD)

You make a game look like some sort of science. Time to find a new hobby.

Legenday pus*y shaver

none of this matters much if make maelstrom on pa and dont skill her dagger lol.....

this is what u're doing;

"For the sake of going against and questioning the status quo, let me make a radical, glittering ALTERNATIVE RAT-PUSHING NO-DAGGER HEADDRESS BUILD FOR PA"

Questioning the status quo is fine, and needed to bring about change and innovation.

But doing it just for the sake of attention after ur suggestions have been clearly heard and rejected on the basis of logic and common sense is retarded.

Good that ur going about the process scientifically with with recorded observations. Bad that ur not listening;

THERE IS NO FKN SENSE TO GIVE PA MAELSTROM WHEN SHE GETS 130 att speed from her blink. Make bf/bkb/basher instead.
NO SENSE IN NOT SKILLING DAGGER EITHER.

Santana - actually Mjollnir gives PA more dps than Battlefury in late game. The more AS u have the more crits u can get. BF have some other advantages (mana & hp regen), but in terms of dps Mjollnir is superior.

you named battle fury as blade fury.
nice la

that's where you guys are wrong!

pa is not a dps hitter where what matters is total damage dealt in 3 seconds hitting! and especially why OP looks more stupid than we already assume he is. PA is supposed to one hit people, thats what her inbuilt ability set suggests and thats why you shouldn't mess around much with her build-->HEADRESS TRASH

at some point, you will only be able to hit 1 and get locked stun and so on, that hit HAS TO MATTER and if you go maelstrom that hit will be equal to what a support would deal at that stage even if her total dps surpasses the one hitting build with more time! realistically that won't happen. You're supposed to kill the target in a flash, much like nuking with lina ulti works. If you can't do that then you're just left with a fast hitting lina, with low hp and that can, if the team can manage to lock them up for an eternity, rape the hell out of the enemy team. Now... why would i want a lina playstyle when the PA playstyle is much better? BECAUSE YOU'RE FUCKING RETARDED

attack speed has diminishing returns, the more attack speed you have the less effective having more attack speed is

blink strike is your primary window of effectiveness

during blink strike you have massively increased attack speed

thus, during your primary window of effectiveness, attack speed items grant less benefit than damage items

items like abyssal and bkb offer massive utility in addition to complementing PA's skill set, items like maelstrom and orchid offer things pa doesnt want (attack speed, int, mana regen) while providing next to no damage to be amped by her crit

factoring orchid damage amp into overall dps is silly because it is removed by bkb/manta/euls (items in EVERY game outside shit tier) and is single target with a cooldown

OK first thing first.

I had no intention in making this to a discussion about PA specifically. That is why I started a new thread. I am not very interested in PA. If you read my text you can see that I am more interested in other heroes. That is why I put up to 25 gems in their items and not a single one in PA so far.

About choosing Maelstrom or another item during the early game:
In this situation Maelstrom is usually the best choice if you want to farm and/or push lanes AND you have a hero that can boost the attack speed greatly OR have high attack speed.

The heroes that meet these criterions are for example these ones:
Troll
Lifestealer
PA
Drow (the ultimate)

These heroes can "maximize" the DPS from Maelstrom since with their high attack speed they will make the lightning proc much more often than the general hero. This is important since the lightning will increase the damage/price ratio in the table I showed you in the first post if you fight vs 4 targets or more instead of only 1.

This increase is very significant since the d/p ratio increases from around 2 to over 4. If you have attack speed 1, then this means an DPS increase of 100% for this item.

And the higher attack speed you have the more often the lightning will proc. That is why I max phantom strike early with PA, since this ability increases the number oft times that the lightning proc as well as the ultimate proc the crit.

The reason why I skill evasion instead of dagger is because this greatly increases the effective hp for PA. Having a stout shield and 40% evasion almost reduces hits from creeps to zero. Therefore PA can easily win 1v1 fights when both creep waves are around. The enemy creeps can barely touch her but her creeps can still hurt the enemy allot. And ofc the evasion help much vs the hero also. The other hero can escape since PA don't have dagger. But it means that PA get free farm 1v1 and the other hero get no farm at all basically. Ofc it depends on which the other hero is also.

Edit:
The evasion also make it possible to wait longer before getting life steal item, which is very good since the life steal in itself do not increase the DPS. A health regen of 3-4 points per second seem enough for farming the jungle with PA if she has high evasion and stout shield. In combination with the phantom strike this give a higher overall DPS then skilling the dagger. And I don’t need to skill the dagger for the farming since I win the lane anyway if it is 1v1 (vs most heroes).

So this was a lot more about my thinking about PA, but this is because many other started to discuss PA in this thread.

Benao.Lifedancer

"that's where you guys are wrong!

pa is not a dps hitter where what matters is total damage dealt in 3 seconds hitting! and especially why OP looks more stupid than we already assume he is."

Your attitude is very toxic and negative. I see no reason for that at all.

This is how I respond: I use this build to farm and push. In order to get gold (GPM). With the gold I later get Mjolnir and Daedalus OR two Daedalus. This does indeed give a high chance to one or two shoot most heores that are not tanks. I ahve done it with this build several times. There is absolutly no reason for why it would not work. I would say that my build even increases the chances compared to other builds since I do not invest in low damage/price items like basher, Abyssal, MKB, or whatever people are buying these days.

In case you didnt understand this: I choose Maelstrom instead of Battle Fury. They have about the same d/p vs one target. Therefore this choice dont have a direct impact on the chances to kill people with one or two hits. And if there is a difference it is probably the Maelstorm that wins anyway since the total cost is significantly lower for this item than for Battle Fury. Which in turn means that you can get other items faster if you choose Maelstrom isntead of BF - other items that actually are good for one hitting kills.

you're just delusional

if you aøready havent realized you're stupid and far from intelligent then you got serious problems

I really try to explain my reasoning in structured way that I hope is easy to understand.

But (as always) it seems that some people have decided that everything I say is irrelevant and they DONT want to understand what I try to tell them and everyone else. This is my honest impression.

http://uppix.com/s-3554c763d0018e4ca-jpg.htm ;) :P

did you design this?

OK lets say I am stupied. OK? Now you dont have to claim that in all the threads in which I try to have a serious and friendly discussion right? Because we have allready agreed upon that I am stupied. It should not have to been said more times. Right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Y0Oqfhr374

JDF8

You claim that PA whant Abyssal but not Orchied.

Abyssal has low d/p and 2 sec stun and chances to proc more stuns.
Besides low d/p it also is constructed from an item that cost 3800. Which you can not really be sure to be able to save since you lose money when you die.

Orchied give you a little bit of everything wich is nice during the middle game. Especially if you do not have another mana reg item.
Also it gives 5 second silence, which in combination with phantom strike, CuG (utli crit) and the slow from the dagger give a window of oppurtunity to kill almost everything in the late game. Yes, if the enemey has an escape item, you need to solve this problem in many was. It is very possible. For example to attack when the item is on cool down, your team mate stun them or whatever.

And ALSO, the damage buff in the end of these 5 seconds is massive for a hero like PA. 30% extra damage for the last 5 seconds is huge.

I have done this with Void many times also. I dont kill the enemy before the buff runs out. And then they die from the 30% extra damage.

Taken from the Vrokthread:

"Probably as retarded and mean as most of the other 11675 ones."

Someone posting a comment like this has all the flame he receives justified IMO.

[Lk].Zano

Sure. I can also lose my temper. Say and write mean things. But at least I TRY to be nice and mannered for the most of the time. I doubt that there is many in this forum that can claim that.

But who in the IRL would blame me? Considering all the flame and toxic I recieve in each thread. Sometimes I give some back.

But I can say that I really like that you keep track of my comments in this forum for me. That make me feel special. :)
You get a flower also :) <3
http://uppix.com/s-Untitled554e82490018e775-png.htm

And also I claim this was trolling: Probably as retarded and mean as most of the other 11675 ones.

abysal gives more dps and utility than orchid on pa

I'm very good at remembering useless stuff.

OK, then please show us the calculations you base this on (with a cost ratio). The utillity is ofcourse depending on the situation and hero drafts.

if you have orchid the enemy can literally tp in front of you
or should i say if you dont have abysal

You use maelstrom to farm ._. But pa with battle fury = crit = dead wave with blink strike you crit quickly and thus maelstrom is useless.....

Maelstrom also has a CD every time it lets lighting go..... It's not long but it's enough to take you out of your "window of effectiveness" without more then 2 or 3 hits most as I recall

Dark Flame Master

Well, Benao.Lifedancer said some posts above that PA is supposed to kill people within 3 seconds, which would not let them TP away.

"...pa is not a dps hitter where what matters is total damage dealt in 3 seconds hitting!"

Sure, this is not the only way to do it. But... If one really wana kill someone in less then 3 seconds, Abyssal is not the right item for the DPS. If you allready have the DPS, sure go get it.

abysal is the dps since you got your w skill already, so you dont need more attackspeed

strategiccheese

No, Maelstrom and BF has about the same damge/price ratio when attacking a single target.
Also Maelstrom has a 550 gold lower cost. Which mean you can get it faster and start farming with it faster, which in turn will let you get the next item faster.

But probably more importatn. Each the components in the Maelstrom has a higher damge/price ratio than the components in the BF. This means that you get better farm before getting Maelstrom compared to if you would choose to get BF instead.

Dark Flame Master

Sure I does give high DPS. But the DPS/gold is rather low compared to other items.

Edit: the thing is, IMO, that when PA get Abyssal, the game was usually allready won before that.

OP here is a link you might like:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/

Review the Excel list I showed in my first post. Abyssal come as number 20 on that list when it is sorted on d/p. It has exactly the same d/p as Claymore.

Edit:
And that was in 6.83. As far as I understand the d/p is even lower in 6.84.

Krazy Kat, why do you think that :)

I like to experiment with hero roles and item builds, but this guy is on next level.

DOTA is very complicated game, you have to keep in mind many factors (not just damage/price ratio):
If you plan to buy lifestealing, Maelstrom will override it when lightning procs.
Carry without stun can be easily countered by ghost (1500g) and tp scroll (100g).
Guardian Greaves can remove silence. It's expensive, but "must have" item. So Orchid has new counters now.

Il linked that so you can post excell links and not just screen shotsl.

OK ty very much Krazy Kat
That should save time.

Soultrap

I basically aggree with all you write there.
I have much to learn about 6.84 that also should be considered.

I use the damage/price ratio since it way much more easy then DPS/price. DPS/p is generally more important. But if the hero has attackspeed 1 then d/p=DPS/p. Therefor it gives you a good starting point.

If the attackspeed is 0.5 the 2d/p=DPS/p.

And so on.

With the logic of damage/cost ratio, you might as well buy a divine rapier on pa with 5 gg branches because those are the most cost effective items.

Not very cost effective if you lose the item. Right?
And the components in DR has low d/p and high price. Which means that it will give PA a very low GPM during the time before completing DR.

buy 5 wraithbands and go get em

This was actually common in Dota1

Why did the flaming end?

Dont tell me you are starting to believe this shit I am posting here? Right?

solution: dont die on a hard carry

tricky, right?

dude you shouldnt build a glass cannon, items should be there to minimize weaknesses not secure a kill. at detriment to overall survivability, you would put your team in a place where they have no choice but to either go in with you and risk a wipe or leave you to get killed after 1 or 2 kills whilst they pressure a hole in defences the enemy have to keep the game from turning. yes the risk reward buzz is great when it goes well but when it doesnt then it promotes low morale and the bad things people say to each other.

Bashes and abyssal stun go through magic immunity. Maelstrom, orchid don't. It's so easy to counter the maelstrom, orchid pa, while you can't do shit if pa blinks on you, bashes you and blows you up. Orchid would only be good on pa vs blink heroes and even then i'd rather get more dmg to ensure I kill them during the abyssal stun duration, rather than plan on not killing them and getting another silence.