I appreciate why a lot of people don't like the concede option, but all the reasons I see (in this thread and elsewhere) could easily be inverted for an equal and opposite logic. Just read any point against having a concede option, and please allow yourself to realize how that already happens now but players simply have to wait longer (all exceptions aside). I think FF has its place with a few important caveats:
1.) It shouldn't be instantly available. There should be conditions that have to be met first (i.e. as some have suggested, a queue option just like language/region that allows people to choose before the game starts). Other triggers could include things like a difference in gold and exp threshold (in-game), but that could be problematic if it encourages people to feed to create the gap (However, related my original point above the feeding isn't actually the issue, it's that people have to unnecessarily wait and are forced to make decisions as such, like AFKing in fountain - which as I say already happens - so this is about time). Don't forget, this isn't just about the possibility of a win/loss - sometimes you're teammates are toxic enough (racist, insulting, etc) that even after muting they still manage to disrupt game-play by selfish actions. It's not just about win/loss, it's about quality of gameplay. Particularly as it relates tot he next point...
2.) Consider making it only available in unranked. If you want to get 'serious' about dota, this creates a healthy cultural divide: unranked is for 'filthy casuals' who embrace the concept of potential team forfeit, and ranked is for those 'hardcore gamers' who understand once their in a game, they're in until it's over.
3.) FF should require 100% buy-in. If all 5 players (or whoever is actively connected) decide to FF they should be able to, but only if all active/connected players agree collectively.
4.) Connected with the previous point, if you attempt to forfeit (click 'yes' on some button, or initiate the FF sequence yourself) your reports should be nullified for that game. If 4 people want to quit, and one guy doesn't - their 'report' efforts will do nothing to the 5th guy. In other words, players can't be singled out and victimized if they want to keep playing for a chance to win, even if they are the only one. This is a really key point/feature that I think will help balance a concede option.
5.) Have a FF rating, either separate or connected with MMR and W/L ratio. We have an abandonment %, why not a FF %? This could be used in a number of ways. I.e. players can see how often you agree to end.
6.) Maintain incentives for not using FF. In my mind, the FF option is for those situations where your experience is destroyed (forget about winning or losing): teammate communication has gone toxic, players are making irrational and selfish decisions to waste time, cause grief, etc. Again, the concede option isn't just about a means to expedite winning or losing. I've won games where I wasn't happy at the end, where I would have preferred to just leave and do something else. So there should still be a carrot dangled for not using FF: i.e. items only drop if the game is finished (although a team who wins from their opponents conceding should still have access to random drops). Other food-for-thought ideas: players who don't initiate FF for X games have a chance at a random skin (even if common/uncommon). Players who don't FF can obtain achievements (steam and/or in-game such as Trophies). etc.
I played original DotA when FF was an option, and considering how non-existent matchmaking features were back then, I think it worked very well. Now that DotA2 brings some sophisticated MM options, with some of the caveats implemented above I really think a concede option would improve the dota2 experience. Cheers, and happy laning :)
I appreciate your attempt to make a reasonable appeal, but you are incorrect regarding the impact the concede feature would have on the community and on individual behavior. The existence of the option to quit the game and not be punished will cause far, far more people to give up. It is a basic principle of human psychology. That is why in the Art of War it says, "do not press a desperate enemy". When you give people no choice but to fight they do. When you leave the enemy a way to retreat they panic and flee as soon as it looks like they will lose.
As it is a few players are such cowards that they hide from loses even being forced to stay in the game. But the concede option will destroy gameplay. If you make it available to unranked, - unranked game culture will change so that games are decided quickly, often by FBQQRQFF. Instead of a opening up freeing, fun loving experience as you might hope removing the consequences for actions will remove the value from the game and with it all of the fun of playing it.
There is only one situation in which a concede option makes sense and that is in a Team Matching game. This is similar to the concede in pro games - when the Team is actually an organized group who are semi-permanently together and make decisions as one. Then conceding the loss is legitimate. The official surrender order preserves resources. The democratic panic of individuals and mobs snowballs into losses that could have been won - and worse still destroys moral and comradely. Such a feature would actually destroy dota as a popular public phenomena. It would become like LoL.
Holy shit relentless it's just a game. That's a bit much.
However I do agree with you, just not for same reasons. I agree there's no reason to abandon not cus of the seriousness of dota but because IT IS just a game. What's the difference if your match ends in 20 mins super push or concede vs a 50 min drawn out affair? Nothing, it's just time. The entire point of dota2 is to entertain you for a period of time. And while it might not be entertaining to wait an extra 30 mins to lose (and it's usually far less than that, more like 5-10 most when game is clearly decided), it's still just a game and you spent extra time on a game you were going to spend time playing anyway. Basically the point of dota2 is to waste time is what I'm saying so why bitch about the manner it was wasted in?
But beyond that a concede option is bad because of how it influences matches. Mid gets ganked a couple times, starts 0-3, people will start flaming calling gg let's concede.
Or you have a normal double carry team with a mid and two supports vs a team that wants to fight more early and push hard but has no real hard carry. It's very possible for the latter team to go up like 5 towers to none, a bunch of kills to few kills and it look very lopsided. The inexperienced will just want to quit then not realizing the enemy team's window is like 20-30 mins for a win and your team will win late if you can survive. This mindset in turn will lead people to spam early game heroes. If you think undying and axe are annoying now just wait until there's a concede option.
We don't want to change people's effort or the meta by adding concede. In reality a concede option would be awesome for games when it is clearly a loss but enemy team refuses to push (so obnoxious) and instead goes to farm both jungles until they are six slotted. That's like the only time I wish we could end games. But those are so few and far between it's not worth ruining 90% of the other games for those small times when it's warranted. And at most you save like 10 minutes.
People who don't understand that are either very inexperienced at dota or are the flamers who blame everyone else for losses.
I'm just explaining and predicting the consequences of adding a concede option. If you really want to play a child's game rather than a game for adults you can play LoL.
LoL will remain just as dota will remain. There are always more kids. People continue to play candy-land (random unskilled outcome game) when they are little and golf when they are old and still want competition but are no longer vigorous enough for most sports.
As childish as many players of Dota 2 may seem at times, there is also a legitimate measure of respect due to its players. It is a fight that forces you to face your limitations and failures, forces your to cooperate with people you don't know and may not like or face the consequence of your defeat. It is very good preparation for young adults to deal with the real life problems and team situations they will face throughout their adult life.
@ Timberwolf - in games when you are almost certain to lose the concede option would feel good. But it will still carry the negative metagame effects I described.
Beyond these dota 2 also forces you to make priorities. Just as you must prioritize resources and time in the game, you must do that same in real life. Just as you may develop bad habits in the game and have to re-learn how to play - so it is irl. You must at some point also learn to prioritize time spent playing dota 2 verses doing other, less stimulating things that must be done. Someone needs to put up the wards - if its not done we all die. Someone needs to farm, if its not done well the game will be lost. Each role must be carried out diligently or the team will fail.
Relentless - you simply have it wrong. Listen carefully (to everyone against a FF option): people are already choosing to concede games. The only difference here is time. That's really what this discussion is about.
If you think that you don't want to waste time on dota games - then I advise you to follow that instinct and stop playing them. The only real lasting benefit you can achieve comes from submitting to the difficulty of playing the full game win or lose. Otherwise it is really just a waste of time. There are many ways to waste time. If you choose to waste it by lifting weights and setting them back down again you would at least become stronger.
Dota 2 is valuable because it is expensive. You did not pay money to play it, but you did pay quite a lot in opportunity cost. Although almost none of you will become pros - you can still get a lot of value out of the game.
Movies are not a competitive team contest. To say Dota 2 is like watching a movie is like pretending that watching basketball is anything like playing an actual 5 v 5 basketball game on a full court with rules, officials, and a shot clock etc. Dota 2 is not a spectating activity. It is not even like a pick-up game. In Dota 2 rules are rigorously enforced, because it is automatically policed - you cannot cheat. In dota 1, you could cheat and many did with various maphacks. Dota 2 is not the same at all.
IF you want to play a pick-up game where you can do whatever you feel like doing play dota 1. There you are free to quit, to cheat, to stack games unfairly etc. In dota 1 it was very common to pub stomp 5 experienced players vs 5 nubs. I had near 100% winrates doing that. Only occasionally would you encounter a team of smurfs, all on new accounts pretending to be nub to counter pub stomp. Dota 2 has eliminated all that (or at least made it extremely difficult so that only a handful of truly dedicated abusers attempt to get unfair advantages). Because the teams now really are fair - really are balanced - really are winnable by either team - the concede option is inappropriate.
I encounter games that make me feel like I was helpless to stop the snowballing on teammates feeds, but I still remember what it was like in dota 1. The current games are nothing like that. In dota 1 there truly were unwinnable games. Now you can comeback despite being down 20k gold at 30 minutes if you don't give up. The game really is not over until the throne explodes.
It's not generalized, if you are playing dota2 you are deciding to spend time on a video game. What truly is the effect on your life if one match takes 20 mins vs 30 mins? Cus that's what we're talking about her, an average savings of like 10 mins. If in your video game time you don't have an extra 10 mins for every 3rd or 4th match then maybe you shouldn't be playing at all.
And the time saved will drastically reduce quality of other matches as tons have already pointed out what the effects will be. Bye bye rat heroes and all late game carries, hello push hero spam. Do you really want that? Do you want spectre and medusa to literally be never picked again while axe and undying are picked every goddamn game? Cus that will happen.
Push, rat, farm, ganks are all very nicely balanced now and have been for a long time. Look at their winrates. People win with all heroes all the time. The best and worst are only 60% vs 40% for just the average pubs. And beyond that there are individuals who win 80% of their games on every single hero in dota 2.
Any hero can be used to win the game. And they are used to win games all day every day. Just because I personally suck at Pudge does not mean pudge has no place in the meta game. Just because I personally kick butt nearly all the time with Lich does not mean the hero is OP.
But as Timberwolf points out, if you can concede when losing it will also destroy the metagame balance for pubs. Who wants to play a late game hero, farm for 30 min and then the other team concedes????. The game is most fun because pubs are playing the same game the pros play. They can try (and fail of course) to do what the pros do.
Maybe a simpler way to explain it: we want a game where you have to fight to the last man, and you can - a game where your odds of winning against mega creeps are low, but it does happen occasionally. This is what makes winning truly worth something.
Maybe Dotabuff could add to the records page, the greatest comeback win.
A truly great player think on the spot, not just through experience.
I was not a great one judging by that game. Shouldn't have sold blademail and replace with heart. Hell, satanic was dumb, thinking that we got a lead was dumb, thinking that I could walk through the enemies was dumb, thinking that you have gotten it done was dumb, it's not over until it's over, because that's more or less the same case with everyone else.
Problem is not your teammates, is how you fail to read your teammates.
This game, in solo queue, it ALWAYS is 1v9, not in the sense that your 4 teammates are ALWAYS shittier, and that your enemies much better than the 5 of you, but the fact that you have to weight in the 9 players' actions and react to them all.
If you are good at just doing your own thing, that's never 1v9, that's 1v1, that's you playing against yourself.
That's not wrong though, but the 1v9 part matters more, because you are not playing against predictable bots
you should be ideally 1v10, if you really care about winning
--------
with that said, if you add concede, it basically=you making a judgement call during x time of the game that you've had enough/that you know this game is beyond saving, or in the case of my said logic, you know there's 0% chance from your observation that your lineup can win their lineup.
This kills potential? yeah it does. But the more important question is, where is that potential coming from? where is it going to?
In said game, my teammates got to places thanks to me not giving up. But in the end they still gave up, because I didn't carry hard enough. Yes, that game deserved a better carry for my team to win,
b
ut
did I DESERVE to be matched with these 4 furiously feeding fucktards? that sand king had 4 games. The enemy sniper had 4000 games.
DID i DESERVE TO GET AT LEAST SUBCONCIOUSLY MAD cus I have to single handedly play what you guys call 1v9? I was basically forced to not teamplay, cus there is no basis for teamplay, this WAS a team game last I check no? WHAT kind of teamplay does a game encourage if I don't even get to be playing with teammates MY SKILL LEVEL? huh??? HOW THE FUCK DO i COOPERATE??? THE GAME LASTED PAST 20 MINUTES SIMPLY BECAUSE i IGNORED THEIR FEEDING AND DID MY OWN THING AND IT WORKED. you seriously think that I can DO SHIT by joining these fucktards without getting ahead myself? You think that this game allows 4 retards to win thanks to one guy being a god??at what??? what for??? WHY would anyone want to play such kind of games? and especially why would that one guy want to be reported by probably 9 on top of the relatively same level of misery shared by 10?
ALL problems in dota 2 isn't about meta, game design, ANYONE who talk about game design is RETARDED
ALL the problems come from matchmaking, and that includes report system, mute, all that good stuff, and yes, a lack of concede, but that comes later.
WHY would you want to concede if you were adequately matched with teammates worthy of your skill level, and enemies worthy? There won't be need for concede, there won't be ragers, there will be 50 50 games every game,, EVERY GAME, EVERY ONE WILL BE HAVING THE TIME OF THEIR LIVES
yet
in this thread and the like, we see people settling for a system far from perfect, a matchmaking so shit it's solely responsible for so many hate and toxicity created, and all valve does is stick to its same old 4 year scapegoating internet bullying peer automated report system which they didn't even care to officially defend ADEQUATLY in a blog post.
hur dur you don't remember the times you got carried
yeah right, I would forget that 50 of the times statistically speaking I felt like I did nothing/i felt like I was the burden?
THIS GAME HAS NO QUALITY 99.999% of the times, WIN OR LOSE, it's almost ALWAYS ROFLSTOMP, and if you think differently you're either blind or so drunkenly misguided you need a shrink. I literally checked for a month the DOTABUFF XP GRAPH and every game judging by the graphs ended by 10/20/30 minute yet dragged on for 20/30/more fucking times, I mean LITERALLY JUST LOOK AT DAT GRAPH IN SAID GAME, LIKE I DON'T EVEN....WHAT'S THE FUCKING POINT OF TRYING? WHO SAID i GOTTA BE PREPARED TO 1V10 EVERY FUCKING GAME, EVEN IN FUCKING NORMAL MATCHMAKING OBSOLETE MODES? WHO SAID i GOTTA TRY MY FUCKING ASS OFF FOR THAT 0.0001% CHANCE THAT WE COULD MIRACULOUSLY WIN? and FOR WHAT? so my 4 feedgod teammates can laugh evilishly ike the total dickwads that they are that they got carried so fucking hard and got a free win even if they didn't want to win and threw like they just won major league and probably also certainly flamed like supernova? THIS IS LITERALLY MORE CANCEROUS THAN GRINDING GEAR in a fucking MMO or ARPG, yet volvo expect us to be bitches to those rare cases of comebacks, and most of those come backs were just enemy throwing.
It's like watching an action movie, you see the main protagonist cookie cutting through hell and back after going super saiyan mode,after getting roflstomped by the boss or mobs. How cliche is that? How fucking retarded is that?
Do people seriously get high from watching or doing shit like dat arteezy clutch satanic rampage in red bull lan? That doesn't even come 1% close to lgd vs ehome drow vs medusa satanic vs satanic back in the days, and that was fucking years ago, and plus you people seriously circlejerk that this game has "omg evolved so much" (quote autism2k)
Do you seriously think just cus the game is speeded up it takes more skill?
That's like saying it takes more skill to produce a mcnugget than your grandma's grilled chicken.
fyi that warlock flamed all of us at minute 5-10 saying none of us know how to play, are new to the game
later on like minute 40 or so, he said this shit harder than ranked, and I asked few seconds later what mmr he on just for shills, and he said a bit over 5k. At end of game all I responded was "you got the balls to say that you are 5k." and disconnected
and the sk typed gg at random points in the game just cus he oh,died again, ignoring teammates
WHAT KIND OF RETARD go about a team game taking nothing in their eyes besides whether they are alive and jumping or not? WHO the fuck plays a moba and then afk and jerk off when he dies?
Conceding is pointless. The thing that separates DotA from LoL is that in DotA, there is a very real chance of comeback. It requires your team to not be idiots and play their best. Adding a forfeit would mean that 10 minutes in when the score is 5-0, people will want to forfeit and go next, and not forfeiting will cause your team to feed until you do.
people don't want to play their best, most of them no. most of them want to lay down and chillax. You think LOL is popular out of the blue????
You want dota 2 to be better? You make the mechanics deeper, you make the matchmaking better, concede will be asked by none, the filthy casuals will be getting the fuck out, the hardcore players will be more happy than ever, end of story.
all dota 2 has ever done to dota is dumbing down mechanics, ignoring junk matchmaking, everything possiblely done worse than LOL, whatever that is, yet stick to no concede pretending to be cooler than LOL? lmfao wut?
you clowns don't deserve to talk to op, get the fuck out
are you fucking seriously sober when you say LOL has no real comeback? from the 20 or so tristana games I played 1 year ago which was all I know about LOL, the game was MILES better at being a fast food moba, MILES better at brainless clusterfuck, was DESIGNED to cater to the filthy casuals, gives MUCH MORE FUN for teamfights, than dota or dota 2 ever had. fucking no come back? lmfao
the beauty of dota WAS in the 1v1 agi core era, NOTHING else.
Look at MMOs, back when MMO were the hot shit, people complain about how stupid trinity system was, yet fucking now that we have had gw2 for what, 3 years? omg so cool was it when I heard they killing trinity system, how very much like the dota 2 of today, everyone fucking get to carry, supports be rich and powerful so nice, what a dream world where everyone is born equal , such diversity, much wow
I seriously cannot tell if chinese anime avater likes dota2 or hates it. Go play lol if you like it more, otherwise play dota2 and enjoy. Not that hard.
If you put concede option conditioned by huge gold/xp gaps, then people would get one more justification to feed. You'd see plenty of "I thought they had over 20k gold advantage when I started feeding!"
Dota 2 already has a concede option. Except you need to trust that all your team will leave the game, or you'll get abandon. It's way better then having 4 team mates yelling at you to press the damn "ff".
a direct result of evening out and casualizing the hero demographic and roles is that everybody think he's hotshot and nobody fucking does his job right
I despise the pro scene, so don't mention it to me, or stacking
I stopped reading about half way in. All i can say is my personal experience playing smite(a 3rd person moba).
Smite has a concede option.When it was in early beta(very very early) there was a surrender option, and only 2 out of 5 (i think i can't remember ) people in a team had to vote yes. Guess what? IT WORKED GREAT. HOWEVER, not many people played it.
The community was small, people loved the new game, people didn't concede unless there was truly no chance and you got to completely finish destroying the minotaur at the end(like the ancient in dota). Then, People started playing the game, a lot of people.
I actually used to like smite better then dota back then, it was easier to understand, community was nicer....etc...
When a shit ton of people started to play , however(most came from lol btw, fuck lol) hi rez actually had to NERF the fucking mechanic. I never EVER saw the minotaur, people would just give up after first blood. People would abandon as soon as people wouldnt surrender. Long story short,in my opinion, people NEVER recovered. I occasionally play it because it has an interesting component to it, but now the community just doesn't try.
It is better then back in that hell-hole of only 2 surrender, but people REFUSE to try as hard as they do in dota. And if god forbid you have a TRULY bad early game, 99% of the time someone concedes. Because fuck late game right? Everyone KNOWS whether they win or not based on early, mid, or late game.
If, god forbid, the losing team comes back one or two team fights, instant concede. You know those REALLY good comebacks in dota? Nope, they don't happen. Comebacks happen, yes, but then the new losing team ALWAYS ALWAYS concedes. You never get the satisfaction of seeing the last hit from the final boss crumble.
Yea, also, smite forums? People ask for the concede option to go away, and the toxic little shits who like to concede down vote the shit out a those posts.
I don't want this to happen to dota, but i GUARANTEE it will.
P.s First very long post, like , ever. Hopefully it was legible as it did take me about 30 minutes to write.
Concede button should only be viable after 15 minutes and with 4/5th vote. Or 7/10 total votes (enemy allowing you to surrender). What happens in HON is people actually grief and throw games more if the people don't concede, even in even matches like 30-30 or 30-20 games. They afk jungle and feed couriers etc...
There should also be a concede algorithm that detects unwinnable games like 7-0 or 30-15 scores to have less votes like 3/5 instead of 4 etc..
Also, just read the other half, holy shit LYRILLVEMPOS VANISHINGSTAR 1437 you are really fucking toxic. and literally one of my goddamn points of why i don't want a concede option, cuz people like you exist and would give up first blood or first death. also, you hate pro players???? i'm confused could you elaborate?
The only corner case where it is acceptable is where one team is relentlessly fountain farming with no intention of ever ending the game. The fountain uphill + fog really helps with that, but Sniper can still be a shit
I wish Valve will never implement concede no matter how much the community requests it.
I appreciate why a lot of people don't like the concede option, but all the reasons I see (in this thread and elsewhere) could easily be inverted for an equal and opposite logic. Just read any point against having a concede option, and please allow yourself to realize how that already happens now but players simply have to wait longer (all exceptions aside). I think FF has its place with a few important caveats:
1.) It shouldn't be instantly available. There should be conditions that have to be met first (i.e. as some have suggested, a queue option just like language/region that allows people to choose before the game starts). Other triggers could include things like a difference in gold and exp threshold (in-game), but that could be problematic if it encourages people to feed to create the gap (However, related my original point above the feeding isn't actually the issue, it's that people have to unnecessarily wait and are forced to make decisions as such, like AFKing in fountain - which as I say already happens - so this is about time). Don't forget, this isn't just about the possibility of a win/loss - sometimes you're teammates are toxic enough (racist, insulting, etc) that even after muting they still manage to disrupt game-play by selfish actions. It's not just about win/loss, it's about quality of gameplay. Particularly as it relates tot he next point...
2.) Consider making it only available in unranked. If you want to get 'serious' about dota, this creates a healthy cultural divide: unranked is for 'filthy casuals' who embrace the concept of potential team forfeit, and ranked is for those 'hardcore gamers' who understand once their in a game, they're in until it's over.
3.) FF should require 100% buy-in. If all 5 players (or whoever is actively connected) decide to FF they should be able to, but only if all active/connected players agree collectively.
4.) Connected with the previous point, if you attempt to forfeit (click 'yes' on some button, or initiate the FF sequence yourself) your reports should be nullified for that game. If 4 people want to quit, and one guy doesn't - their 'report' efforts will do nothing to the 5th guy. In other words, players can't be singled out and victimized if they want to keep playing for a chance to win, even if they are the only one. This is a really key point/feature that I think will help balance a concede option.
5.) Have a FF rating, either separate or connected with MMR and W/L ratio. We have an abandonment %, why not a FF %? This could be used in a number of ways. I.e. players can see how often you agree to end.
6.) Maintain incentives for not using FF. In my mind, the FF option is for those situations where your experience is destroyed (forget about winning or losing): teammate communication has gone toxic, players are making irrational and selfish decisions to waste time, cause grief, etc. Again, the concede option isn't just about a means to expedite winning or losing. I've won games where I wasn't happy at the end, where I would have preferred to just leave and do something else. So there should still be a carrot dangled for not using FF: i.e. items only drop if the game is finished (although a team who wins from their opponents conceding should still have access to random drops). Other food-for-thought ideas: players who don't initiate FF for X games have a chance at a random skin (even if common/uncommon). Players who don't FF can obtain achievements (steam and/or in-game such as Trophies). etc.
I played original DotA when FF was an option, and considering how non-existent matchmaking features were back then, I think it worked very well. Now that DotA2 brings some sophisticated MM options, with some of the caveats implemented above I really think a concede option would improve the dota2 experience. Cheers, and happy laning :)
I appreciate your attempt to make a reasonable appeal, but you are incorrect regarding the impact the concede feature would have on the community and on individual behavior. The existence of the option to quit the game and not be punished will cause far, far more people to give up. It is a basic principle of human psychology. That is why in the Art of War it says, "do not press a desperate enemy". When you give people no choice but to fight they do. When you leave the enemy a way to retreat they panic and flee as soon as it looks like they will lose.
As it is a few players are such cowards that they hide from loses even being forced to stay in the game. But the concede option will destroy gameplay. If you make it available to unranked, - unranked game culture will change so that games are decided quickly, often by FBQQRQFF. Instead of a opening up freeing, fun loving experience as you might hope removing the consequences for actions will remove the value from the game and with it all of the fun of playing it.
There is only one situation in which a concede option makes sense and that is in a Team Matching game. This is similar to the concede in pro games - when the Team is actually an organized group who are semi-permanently together and make decisions as one. Then conceding the loss is legitimate. The official surrender order preserves resources. The democratic panic of individuals and mobs snowballs into losses that could have been won - and worse still destroys moral and comradely. Such a feature would actually destroy dota as a popular public phenomena. It would become like LoL.
Relentless,
You take yourself too seriously and sanctify a full duration of a game to an unreasonable extent.
Holy shit relentless it's just a game. That's a bit much.
However I do agree with you, just not for same reasons. I agree there's no reason to abandon not cus of the seriousness of dota but because IT IS just a game. What's the difference if your match ends in 20 mins super push or concede vs a 50 min drawn out affair? Nothing, it's just time. The entire point of dota2 is to entertain you for a period of time. And while it might not be entertaining to wait an extra 30 mins to lose (and it's usually far less than that, more like 5-10 most when game is clearly decided), it's still just a game and you spent extra time on a game you were going to spend time playing anyway. Basically the point of dota2 is to waste time is what I'm saying so why bitch about the manner it was wasted in?
But beyond that a concede option is bad because of how it influences matches. Mid gets ganked a couple times, starts 0-3, people will start flaming calling gg let's concede.
Or you have a normal double carry team with a mid and two supports vs a team that wants to fight more early and push hard but has no real hard carry. It's very possible for the latter team to go up like 5 towers to none, a bunch of kills to few kills and it look very lopsided. The inexperienced will just want to quit then not realizing the enemy team's window is like 20-30 mins for a win and your team will win late if you can survive. This mindset in turn will lead people to spam early game heroes. If you think undying and axe are annoying now just wait until there's a concede option.
We don't want to change people's effort or the meta by adding concede. In reality a concede option would be awesome for games when it is clearly a loss but enemy team refuses to push (so obnoxious) and instead goes to farm both jungles until they are six slotted. That's like the only time I wish we could end games. But those are so few and far between it's not worth ruining 90% of the other games for those small times when it's warranted. And at most you save like 10 minutes.
People who don't understand that are either very inexperienced at dota or are the flamers who blame everyone else for losses.
I'm just explaining and predicting the consequences of adding a concede option. If you really want to play a child's game rather than a game for adults you can play LoL.
LoL will remain just as dota will remain. There are always more kids. People continue to play candy-land (random unskilled outcome game) when they are little and golf when they are old and still want competition but are no longer vigorous enough for most sports.
As childish as many players of Dota 2 may seem at times, there is also a legitimate measure of respect due to its players. It is a fight that forces you to face your limitations and failures, forces your to cooperate with people you don't know and may not like or face the consequence of your defeat. It is very good preparation for young adults to deal with the real life problems and team situations they will face throughout their adult life.
@ Timberwolf - in games when you are almost certain to lose the concede option would feel good. But it will still carry the negative metagame effects I described.
Beyond these dota 2 also forces you to make priorities. Just as you must prioritize resources and time in the game, you must do that same in real life. Just as you may develop bad habits in the game and have to re-learn how to play - so it is irl. You must at some point also learn to prioritize time spent playing dota 2 verses doing other, less stimulating things that must be done. Someone needs to put up the wards - if its not done we all die. Someone needs to farm, if its not done well the game will be lost. Each role must be carried out diligently or the team will fail.
Relentless - you simply have it wrong. Listen carefully (to everyone against a FF option): people are already choosing to concede games. The only difference here is time. That's really what this discussion is about.
If you think that you don't want to waste time on dota games - then I advise you to follow that instinct and stop playing them. The only real lasting benefit you can achieve comes from submitting to the difficulty of playing the full game win or lose. Otherwise it is really just a waste of time. There are many ways to waste time. If you choose to waste it by lifting weights and setting them back down again you would at least become stronger.
Dota 2 is valuable because it is expensive. You did not pay money to play it, but you did pay quite a lot in opportunity cost. Although almost none of you will become pros - you can still get a lot of value out of the game.
There is concede option its called dc.
"If you think that you don't want to waste time on dota games - then I advise you to follow that instinct and stop playing them."
An over generalized and ignorant approach. I don't mind waiting in line at the movies, until some asshole decides to but in front and fart in my face.
Movies are not a competitive team contest. To say Dota 2 is like watching a movie is like pretending that watching basketball is anything like playing an actual 5 v 5 basketball game on a full court with rules, officials, and a shot clock etc. Dota 2 is not a spectating activity. It is not even like a pick-up game. In Dota 2 rules are rigorously enforced, because it is automatically policed - you cannot cheat. In dota 1, you could cheat and many did with various maphacks. Dota 2 is not the same at all.
IF you want to play a pick-up game where you can do whatever you feel like doing play dota 1. There you are free to quit, to cheat, to stack games unfairly etc. In dota 1 it was very common to pub stomp 5 experienced players vs 5 nubs. I had near 100% winrates doing that. Only occasionally would you encounter a team of smurfs, all on new accounts pretending to be nub to counter pub stomp. Dota 2 has eliminated all that (or at least made it extremely difficult so that only a handful of truly dedicated abusers attempt to get unfair advantages). Because the teams now really are fair - really are balanced - really are winnable by either team - the concede option is inappropriate.
I encounter games that make me feel like I was helpless to stop the snowballing on teammates feeds, but I still remember what it was like in dota 1. The current games are nothing like that. In dota 1 there truly were unwinnable games. Now you can comeback despite being down 20k gold at 30 minutes if you don't give up. The game really is not over until the throne explodes.
It's not generalized, if you are playing dota2 you are deciding to spend time on a video game. What truly is the effect on your life if one match takes 20 mins vs 30 mins? Cus that's what we're talking about her, an average savings of like 10 mins. If in your video game time you don't have an extra 10 mins for every 3rd or 4th match then maybe you shouldn't be playing at all.
And the time saved will drastically reduce quality of other matches as tons have already pointed out what the effects will be. Bye bye rat heroes and all late game carries, hello push hero spam. Do you really want that? Do you want spectre and medusa to literally be never picked again while axe and undying are picked every goddamn game? Cus that will happen.
" Because the teams now really are fair - really are balanced - really are winnable by either team - the concede option is inappropriate. "
Pro games playing for a lot of money never concede.
Push, rat, farm, ganks are all very nicely balanced now and have been for a long time. Look at their winrates. People win with all heroes all the time. The best and worst are only 60% vs 40% for just the average pubs. And beyond that there are individuals who win 80% of their games on every single hero in dota 2.
Any hero can be used to win the game. And they are used to win games all day every day. Just because I personally suck at Pudge does not mean pudge has no place in the meta game. Just because I personally kick butt nearly all the time with Lich does not mean the hero is OP.
But as Timberwolf points out, if you can concede when losing it will also destroy the metagame balance for pubs. Who wants to play a late game hero, farm for 30 min and then the other team concedes????. The game is most fun because pubs are playing the same game the pros play. They can try (and fail of course) to do what the pros do.
i like YinYang's points, esp points 4 and 6. they make logical sense
Noobs (like myself) don't recognise if it is possible to comeback. ;)
Maybe a simpler way to explain it: we want a game where you have to fight to the last man, and you can - a game where your odds of winning against mega creeps are low, but it does happen occasionally. This is what makes winning truly worth something.
Maybe Dotabuff could add to the records page, the greatest comeback win.
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1465932304
take this game for example
does winning really mattered? yes,
I didn't try hard enough, but that's past tense.
A truly great player think on the spot, not just through experience.
I was not a great one judging by that game. Shouldn't have sold blademail and replace with heart. Hell, satanic was dumb, thinking that we got a lead was dumb, thinking that I could walk through the enemies was dumb, thinking that you have gotten it done was dumb, it's not over until it's over, because that's more or less the same case with everyone else.
Problem is not your teammates, is how you fail to read your teammates.
This game, in solo queue, it ALWAYS is 1v9, not in the sense that your 4 teammates are ALWAYS shittier, and that your enemies much better than the 5 of you, but the fact that you have to weight in the 9 players' actions and react to them all.
If you are good at just doing your own thing, that's never 1v9, that's 1v1, that's you playing against yourself.
That's not wrong though, but the 1v9 part matters more, because you are not playing against predictable bots
you should be ideally 1v10, if you really care about winning
--------
with that said, if you add concede, it basically=you making a judgement call during x time of the game that you've had enough/that you know this game is beyond saving, or in the case of my said logic, you know there's 0% chance from your observation that your lineup can win their lineup.
This kills potential? yeah it does. But the more important question is, where is that potential coming from? where is it going to?
In said game, my teammates got to places thanks to me not giving up. But in the end they still gave up, because I didn't carry hard enough. Yes, that game deserved a better carry for my team to win,
b
ut
did I DESERVE to be matched with these 4 furiously feeding fucktards? that sand king had 4 games. The enemy sniper had 4000 games.
DID i DESERVE TO GET AT LEAST SUBCONCIOUSLY MAD cus I have to single handedly play what you guys call 1v9? I was basically forced to not teamplay, cus there is no basis for teamplay, this WAS a team game last I check no? WHAT kind of teamplay does a game encourage if I don't even get to be playing with teammates MY SKILL LEVEL? huh??? HOW THE FUCK DO i COOPERATE??? THE GAME LASTED PAST 20 MINUTES SIMPLY BECAUSE i IGNORED THEIR FEEDING AND DID MY OWN THING AND IT WORKED. you seriously think that I can DO SHIT by joining these fucktards without getting ahead myself? You think that this game allows 4 retards to win thanks to one guy being a god??at what??? what for??? WHY would anyone want to play such kind of games? and especially why would that one guy want to be reported by probably 9 on top of the relatively same level of misery shared by 10?
ALL problems in dota 2 isn't about meta, game design, ANYONE who talk about game design is RETARDED
ALL the problems come from matchmaking, and that includes report system, mute, all that good stuff, and yes, a lack of concede, but that comes later.
WHY would you want to concede if you were adequately matched with teammates worthy of your skill level, and enemies worthy? There won't be need for concede, there won't be ragers, there will be 50 50 games every game,, EVERY GAME, EVERY ONE WILL BE HAVING THE TIME OF THEIR LIVES
yet
in this thread and the like, we see people settling for a system far from perfect, a matchmaking so shit it's solely responsible for so many hate and toxicity created, and all valve does is stick to its same old 4 year scapegoating internet bullying peer automated report system which they didn't even care to officially defend ADEQUATLY in a blog post.
hur dur you don't remember the times you got carried
yeah right, I would forget that 50 of the times statistically speaking I felt like I did nothing/i felt like I was the burden?
THIS GAME HAS NO QUALITY 99.999% of the times, WIN OR LOSE, it's almost ALWAYS ROFLSTOMP, and if you think differently you're either blind or so drunkenly misguided you need a shrink. I literally checked for a month the DOTABUFF XP GRAPH and every game judging by the graphs ended by 10/20/30 minute yet dragged on for 20/30/more fucking times, I mean LITERALLY JUST LOOK AT DAT GRAPH IN SAID GAME, LIKE I DON'T EVEN....WHAT'S THE FUCKING POINT OF TRYING? WHO SAID i GOTTA BE PREPARED TO 1V10 EVERY FUCKING GAME, EVEN IN FUCKING NORMAL MATCHMAKING OBSOLETE MODES? WHO SAID i GOTTA TRY MY FUCKING ASS OFF FOR THAT 0.0001% CHANCE THAT WE COULD MIRACULOUSLY WIN? and FOR WHAT? so my 4 feedgod teammates can laugh evilishly ike the total dickwads that they are that they got carried so fucking hard and got a free win even if they didn't want to win and threw like they just won major league and probably also certainly flamed like supernova? THIS IS LITERALLY MORE CANCEROUS THAN GRINDING GEAR in a fucking MMO or ARPG, yet volvo expect us to be bitches to those rare cases of comebacks, and most of those come backs were just enemy throwing.
It's like watching an action movie, you see the main protagonist cookie cutting through hell and back after going super saiyan mode,after getting roflstomped by the boss or mobs. How cliche is that? How fucking retarded is that?
Do people seriously get high from watching or doing shit like dat arteezy clutch satanic rampage in red bull lan? That doesn't even come 1% close to lgd vs ehome drow vs medusa satanic vs satanic back in the days, and that was fucking years ago, and plus you people seriously circlejerk that this game has "omg evolved so much" (quote autism2k)
Do you seriously think just cus the game is speeded up it takes more skill?
That's like saying it takes more skill to produce a mcnugget than your grandma's grilled chicken.
fyi that warlock flamed all of us at minute 5-10 saying none of us know how to play, are new to the game
later on like minute 40 or so, he said this shit harder than ranked, and I asked few seconds later what mmr he on just for shills, and he said a bit over 5k. At end of game all I responded was "you got the balls to say that you are 5k." and disconnected
and the sk typed gg at random points in the game just cus he oh,died again, ignoring teammates
WHAT KIND OF RETARD go about a team game taking nothing in their eyes besides whether they are alive and jumping or not? WHO the fuck plays a moba and then afk and jerk off when he dies?
Conceding is pointless. The thing that separates DotA from LoL is that in DotA, there is a very real chance of comeback. It requires your team to not be idiots and play their best. Adding a forfeit would mean that 10 minutes in when the score is 5-0, people will want to forfeit and go next, and not forfeiting will cause your team to feed until you do.
I always remember back to this fucking game whenever I think that DotA should add a forfeit button:
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/786319064
oh, so if they want to be idiots you don't let them? you serioiusly think that disciplining and rules work ?
people don't want to play their best, most of them no. most of them want to lay down and chillax. You think LOL is popular out of the blue????
You want dota 2 to be better? You make the mechanics deeper, you make the matchmaking better, concede will be asked by none, the filthy casuals will be getting the fuck out, the hardcore players will be more happy than ever, end of story.
all dota 2 has ever done to dota is dumbing down mechanics, ignoring junk matchmaking, everything possiblely done worse than LOL, whatever that is, yet stick to no concede pretending to be cooler than LOL? lmfao wut?
you clowns don't deserve to talk to op, get the fuck out
Maybe if you get out of normal skill first, you'll realize that comebacks are very real.
are you fucking seriously sober when you say LOL has no real comeback? from the 20 or so tristana games I played 1 year ago which was all I know about LOL, the game was MILES better at being a fast food moba, MILES better at brainless clusterfuck, was DESIGNED to cater to the filthy casuals, gives MUCH MORE FUN for teamfights, than dota or dota 2 ever had. fucking no come back? lmfao
the beauty of dota WAS in the 1v1 agi core era, NOTHING else.
Look at MMOs, back when MMO were the hot shit, people complain about how stupid trinity system was, yet fucking now that we have had gw2 for what, 3 years? omg so cool was it when I heard they killing trinity system, how very much like the dota 2 of today, everyone fucking get to carry, supports be rich and powerful so nice, what a dream world where everyone is born equal , such diversity, much wow
is it, now?| really?| diversity? trollollmfao.
Then go play that instead of sucking at dota.
FUCK YOU
I seriously cannot tell if chinese anime avater likes dota2 or hates it. Go play lol if you like it more, otherwise play dota2 and enjoy. Not that hard.
at least the 30% of my games i though was lost we did a comeback, so, don't add this option, this is not LoL
if u want that, go to lol
it's tina branford you fucktard
If you put concede option conditioned by huge gold/xp gaps, then people would get one more justification to feed. You'd see plenty of "I thought they had over 20k gold advantage when I started feeding!"
Dota 2 has concede if you are a pro
HoN had concede
dota 1 had concede
league has concede
Game needs the option so bad it is absurd.
and everyone saying "d/c is concede option" is wrong. The real concede option is AFKing in the base and getting xp once every 5 minutes.
Dota 2 already has a concede option. Except you need to trust that all your team will leave the game, or you'll get abandon. It's way better then having 4 team mates yelling at you to press the damn "ff".
" if you are playing dota2 you are deciding to spend time on a video game"
Spend time: yes. Waste time: no.
@tilt why would DotA 1 even need it? Just leave. Not like it kept score.
DOTA 2:
SPEND TIME: YES
WASTE TIME: 100% WHO ARE YOU KIDDING DUH
ferrari 430's id for a long time: (my)time got stolen
another long time id: if I don't listen to music((solo queueing)) I'll be pissed to death by teammates
ANY RANDOM PRO PLAYER ID: mid or feed
a direct result of evening out and casualizing the hero demographic and roles is that everybody think he's hotshot and nobody fucking does his job right
I despise the pro scene, so don't mention it to me, or stacking
@6_din_49
that got patched from what i was told
I stopped reading about half way in. All i can say is my personal experience playing smite(a 3rd person moba).
Smite has a concede option.When it was in early beta(very very early) there was a surrender option, and only 2 out of 5 (i think i can't remember ) people in a team had to vote yes. Guess what? IT WORKED GREAT. HOWEVER, not many people played it.
The community was small, people loved the new game, people didn't concede unless there was truly no chance and you got to completely finish destroying the minotaur at the end(like the ancient in dota). Then, People started playing the game, a lot of people.
I actually used to like smite better then dota back then, it was easier to understand, community was nicer....etc...
When a shit ton of people started to play , however(most came from lol btw, fuck lol) hi rez actually had to NERF the fucking mechanic. I never EVER saw the minotaur, people would just give up after first blood. People would abandon as soon as people wouldnt surrender. Long story short,in my opinion, people NEVER recovered. I occasionally play it because it has an interesting component to it, but now the community just doesn't try.
It is better then back in that hell-hole of only 2 surrender, but people REFUSE to try as hard as they do in dota. And if god forbid you have a TRULY bad early game, 99% of the time someone concedes. Because fuck late game right? Everyone KNOWS whether they win or not based on early, mid, or late game.
If, god forbid, the losing team comes back one or two team fights, instant concede. You know those REALLY good comebacks in dota? Nope, they don't happen. Comebacks happen, yes, but then the new losing team ALWAYS ALWAYS concedes. You never get the satisfaction of seeing the last hit from the final boss crumble.
Yea, also, smite forums? People ask for the concede option to go away, and the toxic little shits who like to concede down vote the shit out a those posts.
I don't want this to happen to dota, but i GUARANTEE it will.
P.s First very long post, like , ever. Hopefully it was legible as it did take me about 30 minutes to write.
Concede button should only be viable after 15 minutes and with 4/5th vote. Or 7/10 total votes (enemy allowing you to surrender). What happens in HON is people actually grief and throw games more if the people don't concede, even in even matches like 30-30 or 30-20 games. They afk jungle and feed couriers etc...
There should also be a concede algorithm that detects unwinnable games like 7-0 or 30-15 scores to have less votes like 3/5 instead of 4 etc..
Also, just read the other half, holy shit LYRILLVEMPOS VANISHINGSTAR 1437 you are really fucking toxic. and literally one of my goddamn points of why i don't want a concede option, cuz people like you exist and would give up first blood or first death. also, you hate pro players???? i'm confused could you elaborate?
Only give concede to Team Matchmaking parties.
LMFAO give up m y ass
i said I despise the pro scene, but your obviously too bright to understand that, just like everything else I cared to write
OH WAIT "I stopped reading about half way in. " proceed to judge posts written past half way
LMFAO
FF concede only if you lost 3 sides.
Best come back ever => http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/610599359
"Also, just read the other half, " ....sigh
The only corner case where it is acceptable is where one team is relentlessly fountain farming with no intention of ever ending the game. The fountain uphill + fog really helps with that, but Sniper can still be a shit