General DiscussionCritisize my build on Sven and tell me do you agree with maxing the s...

Obviously, you won't max it 'till you max-out your other spells, such as cleave, warcry and ultimate.

I've had the habit of leaving stun at lv 1 and I quite like it. Never tried butterfly on Sven.

Apparently satanic is not v gd on Sven. Heart for dps. If getting kited Thn I guess flutter is nice.

Still would prefer AC.

Why don't you consider bloodthorne? Pretty Gud on Sven

Also I would nv buy se on Sven as u waste too many slots w that item. I would just buy force staff for more mobility

Treads before dominator (you will have it sooner then), blink OR silver edge (bad vs BS cause his 3rd if you use it for escape), AC is best vs all those items, dominator logically into satanic later on vs heart clearly.

Only max stun if you have problems that ppl run from you with like 100hp after your initiation and you cant kill them..

Because, honestly, I forgot about BloodThrone. It's a viable pickup on him for sure, tho dadealuds still provides more DPS.

AC vs Buttefly for pure survival, I think butterly wins here, esp. since it forces enemy team to get MKB. Even tho omnislash will hit you, extra-attack during the omnislash won't.

also Butterfly provides more attackspeed/attack damage on sven.

Stun at lvl1 is okay, but I was talking about taking it after you max your other abilities.

"Only max stun if you have problems that ppl run from you with like 100hp after your initiation and you cant kill them.."

Yeah, I agree.

"Treads before dominator (you will have it sooner then)"

I doubt it, because I can get as fast as 3 or 4 mins dominator. And I can stack asap the first ancicents. If it was Slark, SF or some other carry, I'd get PT asap 100%, I think it's different for sven.

"blink OR silver edge (bad vs BS cause his 3rd if you use it for escape)"

It wasn't for escape in this game, it was mostly used as gap closer or tool for tunneling vision.

Extra stats and passive disable/dmg reduction/bonus dmg first hit is just amazing, but situational.

"AC is best vs all those items"

You have to elaborate why, because it makes no sense otherwise. It does provide you additonal armor and 35 attack speed, but that's it.

" dominator logically into satanic later on vs heart clearly."

I don't know bro, heart provides more HP, will scale better with your ultimate, and will regen you fast if you're outside of teamfight..

always max stun after other spells, three stat levels won't give you that much burst damage at any point, you and you should no longer have mana problems due to echo sabre

silver edge is situational in case the enemy has escape heroes who can manta out of your disables so you can seamlessly initiate on them, otherwise you won't really have a slot for both it and blink in most scenarios

neither AC or butterfly are necessary on sven anymore since you can finish the game with echo sabre pretty much but in case your item build goes further you almost always get AC against -armor and butterfly against some modifiers (if you have to manfight people who can bash you for example)

butterfly will give you more damage than heart in most scenarios because sven needs attack speed more than he needs damage, and you should always have a satanic lategame so that you can survive being disabled, and have the ability to deal damage once you are left alive with 500 hp

of course that also depends on your supports helping you against kiting and so on, but since you can't count in it, you should have it in case you can recover from disables

if you have butterfly AND satanic, you can activate flutter and satanic in case you are getting kited and are at low hp, it will allow you to run at people really fast (considering you should also have BoTs at that point), and then lifesteal a fuckton

but other than that, whenever you play sven, you should aim to just outfarm everyone and end up six slotted at 30 and odd minutes (six slotted with echo sabre is fine at that point), because once you are talking about satanic and butterfly and other high tier items, it is very likely the enemy carry is already building to counter you anyway, and you can expect shivas, skadis abyssals and so on, so sven is just straight up not a good hero anymore at that point, but you can still try to salvage what you can by maxing yourself out with roughtly:

BoTs Bloodthorn/Daedalus Ac/Butterfly
BKB Blink Satanic/Heart

also remember that for your HP slot (satanic/heart) you almost never go heart because you'll get caught in the middle of a teamfight with no ability to quickly regen health if you go heart, and you won't have a slot for both lifesteal and heart lategame, so go lifesteal over heart if you have to manfight people daedalus is much worse than bthorn in pubs, especially since heroes like morphling and weaver are rather popular right now (and are countered by linkens breakers and silence in general

some games you will even go abyssal but that's so super rare it is not worth covering here

if you need to buy something to end the game, moon shard is often a very good choice, for 4000 gold it offers similar and in many cases higher DPS than AC (you reduce armor from 5 heroes, but it only affects the one you are hitting), so if you just want to push buildings you can go straight into a moon shard bkb and just hit them, if things go awry you can farm really fast with it anyways and you can eat it later so you aren't losing out on it (an early moonshard is actually more valuable than a 7th slot one, because you get to use 120 attack speed for longer time, before consuming it).

I honestly wanna try butterfly on Sven. But then what do u do when u "force" them to go mkb? U lose all that survivability.

@emotional if he is getting a 5 min Dom from just lane creeps. How will having treads help him get it Sooner?

^yeah that's dumb, you always get dominator first on sven, unless you are having a lane in which you have to get boots first, and if you are really pressured, but even in that case you still want to get helm asap so you can at least jungle even if you can't lane anymore (sk is pretty popular nowadays and cancerous at it too)

I think getting attack speed is overrated. U have that wonderful echo item anyway. U might do better w daed heart for 1 shotting ppl rather than trying to hit ppl many times

Via stacking and farming hard camp with treads and cleave.

no, that's stupid, attack speed is by no means overrated, you go attack speed because people are not always going to clump together, let you cleave them to death, and die in 2 seconds of your disable, if there are tanky heroes on the enemy team, you will need not only to chase after them, but also deal a ton of damage and you get more DPS from attack speed than you do from just damage items on sven, if you already have daedalus/blood thorn

so no, attack speed is not overrated, it's more so that you are in a bracket where it's possible to get 2 hit rampages with sven, anywhere above about 2.5k that becomes immensely difficult because people know what sven does, so you spend a lot of time chasing and getting kited, which is why you want blood thorn as well as it can let you disable people while their manta/bkb/lotus/euls/whatever is on cooldown

that's also why you go SnY some games, sven has to do a lot of chasing without proper setup, and you won't always have a good setup

^pre min 5?????

^yeah, he probably thinks that, but that's stupid, not only is that camp going to be used for pulling most of the time, it is also hard to farm it at early levels because you won't have damage even with treads, and also you will need creeps to tank for you because you are not level 11 at 5 minutes

when I'm having a free lane I usually only farm it at like 7th minute but at that point you can easily have both treads and dominator anyway

people think heroes like enigma and magnus are sven's best friends but the reality is that nobody is retarded enough to clump like that against sven, so his real best friends are more likely to be heroes like ogre and dark seer who can fix the biggest problem he has - kiting, but even that is marginal nowadays because diffusal is so powerful, and can purge ion shell and blood lust as well as warcry, so unless you have a bkb you are still gonna get rekt

ah but if you're getting kited. Then don't u want more burst within a smaller time window before the Kiting happens? Having quick attack speed means ur assuming u will get a chance to get off many hits?

I'm not too sure. Most
Games w Sven end before it gets to super late. I usually
Never end have to buy attack speed or survivability items. Normal skills are so dogshit xD

I feel like satanic number 1 not as much HP, and it plays along Sven's weaknesses of getting kited. Heart HP is enough to prevent bursting, then watch em try to kill u with warcry armor and 35% butterfly evasion or 15 ac armor. Its nuts. Sny too expensive for what it does for Sven when echo is cheaper, provides a slow, and has stats more useful to Sven.

Attack speed is nuts on Sven, even tho echo allows u to burst someone, people can spread out quick, and the attack speed allows u to get in more hits before this happens.

"always max stun after other spells, three stat levels won't give you that much burst damage at any point, you and you should no longer have mana problems due to echo sabre"

Exactly. Nice.

"silver edge is situational in case the enemy has escape heroes who can manta out of your disables so you can seamlessly initiate on them, otherwise you won't really have a slot for both it and blink in most scenarios"

Let's agree it's an situational item. :)

"neither AC or butterfly are necessary on sven anymore since you can finish the game with echo sabre pretty much but in case your item build goes further you almost always get AC against -armor and butterfly against some modifiers (if you have to manfight people who can bash you for example)"

That's why I went for butterfly. And I forced jugg to get MKB, and BS is annoying af aswell. I agree with rest of your post.

"butterfly will give you more damage than heart in most scenarios because sven needs attack speed more than he needs damage, and you should always have a satanic lategame so that you can survive being disabled, and have the ability to deal damage once you are left alive with 500 hp"

That's what I thought. Thanks m8.

"of course that also depends on your supports helping you against kiting and so on, but since you can't count in it, you should have it in case you can recover from disables"

You can't trust supports in 3900-4100 mmr xd

"but other than that, whenever you play sven, you should aim to just outfarm everyone and end up six slotted at 30 and odd minutes (six slotted with echo sabre is fine at that point), because once you are talking about satanic and butterfly and other high tier items, it is very likely the enemy carry is already building to counter you anyway, and you can expect shivas, skadis abyssals and so on, so sven is just straight up not a good hero anymore at that point, but you can still try to salvage what you can by maxing yourself out with roughtly:"

You cant outfarm Jugg with 15 min manta/phase when your jakiro goes 1-5 offlane and cries like lill bitch

"some games you will even go abyssal but that's so super rare it is not worth covering here"

Yeah.

Yea u may be right. But u usually get attack speed really late after crit and maybe bkb. So by then it's probably a hard game

why do you assume attack speed does not equal burst? If you put down the values, +120 attack speed is actually more DPS than +135 damage from heart, when you already have daedalus and are about level 20

seriously, would you rather hit for 600 damage 6 times, or hit for 735 damage 4 times? +120 attack speed is actually fucking huge, and when you are chasing people, bigger attack speed means it takes less time to complete an attack WHICH IS SUPER IMPORTANT ON HEROES LIKE SVEN once they have to chase people down

satanic gives you 95 damage anyway and is an overall better item than heart in majority of scenarios

also @Daddy, don't shit talk SnY please, it is an excellent item on sven, and sometimes even 6slot worthy if you have to run around with BoTs and SnY to kill people

I mean, if you're playing against a BoTs alchemist or morphling, good fucking luck trying to burst him down and not have him just run away from you if you don't manage to... sny lets you hit people more because they are no longer able to escape you

also some games you go diffusal in solo queue if you have to deal with omni aghs, but that's uber situational

I am shit talking sny, its by no means a bad item but now that echo exists I see no reason to buy it. Sven starts running out of slots quickly too, so I dont wanna buy echo and sny. Plus as u mentioned earlier buy butterfly, and use flutter to catch up to said morphling or alch. I just don't see it fitting into a build, the item is still good.

I've had games in which I ended up building echo/sny/blink/dominator/pt ~20-22 mins and ended up running at people and ending the game ~25 mins.

Not the best build you;ll ever see but it works wonders if you have a team behind you.

SnY gives you 100% uptime on racecar sven, where flutter works more like phase boots on a really long cooldown
SnY and Echo saber do have roles that overlap, but sometimes you are going to need it

you also need to understand that Echo gives you a slow every 5 seconds, where SnY makes YOU faster and gives you a potential for a slow, if you can't catch up to people in first place Echo is actually pretty worthless in that scenario, but SnY helps a ton

Sny is a decent pickup for Sven even now imo, it just depends wheter or not you'll be carring the game alone or not.

Sometimes racecar Sven is what you need.

Sny, Echo, Daedalus, satanic, BKB provide really sick combination both survival/dps/chase/escape..

It's all situational tho

What im thinking is why would you go sny for chasing people when u can just get daedalus for 2 shotting people? And im sure chasing people down is not the problem for sven when u got blink echo daedalus

Because sometimes you get kited, or people escape? I didn't say you don't go echo and daedalus tho.

"And im sure chasing people down is not the problem for sven when u got blink echo daedalus"

I guess in normal skill people don't buy euls, force staff, ghost scepter, hex, or literally any utility item.

Even the typical six slot with BKB and 12000 physical EHP is still prone to getting rekt by abyssal, so I can't believe you can ask a question like this.

How can sm1 you targetting kite you when u r a sven that can 2 shot you before you even realize it

^because you can't 2shot a whole team, and people can position to kite you after you've killed a target you wanted to focus?

Eul forcestaff hex and literally any utility item is quite expensive item for a support and they usually get it mid to late game. Sven can get pt domi echo blink daedalus by 20s min, they wouldnt even hv the time to farm. If they hv a core who hv natural kiting item build , then u can go for him 1st. And ghost isnt the problem if u r the 1 who initiate 1st because u can stun

you can have force by 20 min as any support

people can ghost before your stun hits

getting stunned is an issue even with bkb

sny is dogshit however

Im not saying a sven 2 shotting a whole team. Im saying a sven who can 2 shot enemy cores by gettin daedalus rather than sny when the enemy hasnt even done farming yet. Starting a fight 4v5 as sven is alr a good thing and even if they position after it , its already an unfair fight

@JDF8: sny would not be situationally bought in competitive games if it were dogshit

however it is situational though

Sny just doesn't fit into a Sven build. If u can farm so fast why waste ur time on a relatively high cost item with low impact. If u really want move speed IMO even a manta with bloodthorn is better.

And what im saying is if the sven has a great game , but if not then its a whole different story . Im 3.7k . I might hv a lot of mistake and jdf just point it out but im just giving my opinion .

u won game, so we cant tell nothing special here
items were nice
if you allrdy going silver go gem of true sigh

also only note ; your lasthit is so low i mean i can get 600 lasthits by then and your winning...obviously you are lazy but i think more that you dont know to farm efficienty you are medium 3k farmer .

600 last hits for 40 mins? Yeah it's doable, if you afk/farm and expect your team to win for you

satanic is dogshit if they managed to bring you down to low hp it means you got kited a lot. what makes you think you can hit things while being kited? creeps out of the question since they would all be killed by your earlier cleaves. the weaker heroes would all be dead at that point, finished off by your cleave/team. youll just be a big creep that has 100 ms waiting for that drow to kill you

i heard heart is a pretty good substitute for tankiness

^yeah that's dumb, you always get dominator first on sven, unless you are having a lane in which you have to get boots first, and if you are really pressured, but even in that case you still want to get helm asap so you can at least jungle even if you can't lane anymore (sk is pretty popular nowadays and cancerous at it too)

its the same concept as going treads roh am in an easy lane

get Boots + quell + shield + dom + echo before 20 minutes.
If your team sucks at split pushing buy travels, and rotate between safe lanes and both jungles, if not buy threads.
them go travels + dom(into satanic) + echo + bkb + blink + crit

"Sny, Echo, Daedalus, satanic, BKB provide really sick combination both survival/dps/chase/escape.."

You named five items not including boots and blink, which are core. So you have to drop one. Are you dropping echo sabre for s&y? Nope. You're definitely not dropping daedalus or satanic or bkb either.

S&y just doesn't fit on sven anymore unless, you skip blink just cus ur a badass who needs no initiation. Can't imagine many scenarios like this but hey it's plausible I suppose.

You don't need bkb. Rarely happens on sven but sometimes enemy team is full of bkb piercing cancer and just not worth it.

You finish game before you need a big dps item like daedulus. This is the most likely case for building s&y. You are farming well and get treads, dominator, echo, blink, s&y, bkb at 30 mins and game ends. Even then though crystalis is probably way more dps than s&y.

This is kind of the old argument against armlet. Armlet is nice on sven but he just doesn't have room.